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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 15, 2013 - 05:02am PT
...is to find a partner who will shelter and provide so's the progeny can be successful.

Well, sure that's half of the story, but from a biological perspective, once so settled, the female reproductive track is designed to then promiscuously and opportunistically seek out a higher quality sperm when the occasion arises. Quite extra-biblical.

Rate of molecular evolution of the seminal protein gene SEMG2 correlates with levels of female promiscuity

Postcopulatory sperm competition is a key aspect of sexual selection and is believed to drive the rapid evolution of both reproductive physiology and reproduction-related genes. It is well-established that mating behavior determines the intensity of sperm competition, with polyandry (i.e., female promiscuity) leading to fiercer sperm competition than monandry. Studies in mammals, particularly primates, showed that, owing to greater sperm competition, polyandrous taxa generally have physiological traits that make them better adapted for fertilization than monandrous species, including bigger testes, larger seminal vesicles, higher sperm counts, richer mitochondrial loading in sperm and more prominent semen coagulation. Here, we show that the degree of polyandry can also impact the dynamics of molecular evolution. Specifically, we show that the evolution of SEMG2, the gene encoding semenogelin II, a main structural component of semen coagulum, is accelerated in polyandrous primates relative to monandrous primates. Our study showcases the intimate relationship between sexual selection and the molecular evolution of reproductive genes.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 15, 2013 - 08:42am PT
i think healyje's citation could bear a bit of analysis. female promiscuity would be off the chart at a hollywood party attended by an important producer, but nonexistent in certain remote mormon communities. of course, interpretation of raw data in the latter venue could easily be influenced by researcher bias.

ed, i'm not sure what you're trying to say. "the way things are" is the definition of truth, from old greeks like parmenides. "retelling"--that's what happens with folk tales. they are never retold in quite the same way, but the process always involves a human mind glomming onto an old idea. i can't remember which thread we discussed it on, but i believe werner was alleging rather vehemently, even for him, that the entire business of a new idea is illusory.

evolutionary psychology isn't my thing, by the way, just something i've read about and found interesting. i met a certain ucsb prof at the last gordon party and somehow we got around to discussing this and he got very interested. it was in a different department at his university and he had never heard about it. ucsb and ucla seem to have a study group devoted to the subject which holds occasional symposia. my request to attend one a couple years ago went into the electronic equivalent of a round file, so i've paid less attention to their schtick. this husband-and-wife team, i'm sure, would be able to provide you data to warm your scientific heart, but i also suspect that many of their ideas found genesis in pillow talk.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 15, 2013 - 10:04am PT
TB: i think healyje's citation could bear a bit of analysis. female promiscuity would be off the chart at a hollywood party attended by an important producer, but nonexistent in certain remote mormon communities. of course, interpretation of raw data in the latter venue could easily be influenced by researcher bias.

Assertions of polyandry have nothing to do with sociology or psychology, but rather everything to the evolution of the human male and [particularly] female reproduction system relative to sperm competition.
cowpoke

climber
Jan 15, 2013 - 10:27am PT
For one of the better critiques of evolutionary psychology and, in turn, replies to that critique (and the reply to the replies), see Lickliter & Honeycutt's 2003 Psych Bull paper; it is, in many respects, the precursor to the empirical line of work getting attention in the NY Times article on dating and Darwin.

Here is the google scholar page with links to the pdf's: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=lickliter+evolutionary+psychology+&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C22&as_sdtp=

the heart of the matter (p. 829):
A developmental dynamics perspective allows researchers to abandon popular yet misleading metaphorical references to gene
action (e.g., genes as the storehouse of information or programs for development, genes as the overseers or regulators of development) in favor of characterizing gene activity as a molecular, intracellular event (Johnston & Edwards, 2002). Such an approach emphasizes the unpacking of the mechanics of developmental processes and would include (as first steps) coordinated interdisciplinary efforts to (a) systematically identify individual DNA sequences and their associated products, (b) determine the nongenetic factors involved in constructing and regulating the structure and function of the these products, (c) trace these products and their influence across the various levels of organization that make up the individual organism, and (d) determine how previous developmental outcomes and current experiences influence these processes in ecologically meaningful contexts (see Wagner, Chiu, & Laubichler, 2000, for a similar evo-devo view). The psychological sciences have much to offer in this effort, particularly to explain how previous developmental outcomes and current experiences influence these biological processes in specific contexts.

Viewing genes as reciprocal partners in the developmental processes underlying phenotypic traits and characters requires a shift
in the way the “environment” is typically characterized in discussions of both development and evolution. From a developmental
dynamics framework, the environment cannot be reduced to “supportive conditions” or to an abstract “poser of problems” that must be solved—both common perspectives within contemporary evolutionary psychology. Rather, the specific physical, biological, and social environments within which the individual organism develops are recognized to be inseparable parts of the developmental system. Hence, the organism and its environment are best characterized as codefining (Turvey & Shaw, 1995), and evolution can be seen to result from a dialectical interaction between organisms and environments through ontogeny (Levins & Lewontin, 1985). Attempts to rigidly dichotomize the contributions of the organism and its environment to development or evolution typically lead to the need to invoke other troubling and unnecessary dichotomies, including the nondevelopmental phylogenetic–ontogenetic causal framework reviewed in previous sections and widely embraced by evolutionary psychologists. Whereas such dichotomies have allowed evolutionary psychologists to virtually ignore developmental dynamics in their accounts of human development and behavior (by arguing that they are interested in phylogenetic rather than ontogenetic questions), we argue that evolutionary and developmental frameworks do not provide fundamentally different ways of explaining behavior. Rather, developmental processes are fundamental both to individual development and to evolutionary change.

Instead of asking reductionistic questions about the genetic basis of human development and behavior, a developmental dynamics
approach is interested in what are the contributions of the various components and levels of the organism–environment system and their interactions to phenotypic outcome. This empirically based unpacking of the mechanics of developmental processes requires going beyond the notion of the causal powers of the gene and focusing on the broader relational principles that govern and constrain development and evolution.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 15, 2013 - 11:19am PT
cowpoke,

So what did you glean from the above post?
cowpoke

climber
Jan 15, 2013 - 11:22am PT
^^which one?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 15, 2013 - 11:23am PT
Any of them. Give me your own sense of it. Thanks.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 15, 2013 - 11:25am PT
corn spirit, i'm the only guy authorized to complain about that. everyone else on supertopo takes the dumps from their friends as positive proof of everything they want to believe.
cowpoke

climber
Jan 15, 2013 - 11:34am PT
high fructose, my last post was primarily in response to the comments on using evolutionary psychology-ish approaches to understanding mating and dating behavior's such as Tony does here:
the evolutionary psychologists have come up with a great explanation for the battle of the sexes. men and women have differing interests, due to the very nature of gender, for forwarding their personal genes into spacetime. because men can potentially have an almost unlimited number of offspring, they tend to be promiscuous. women, on the other hand, produce one sex cell per month. if they become impregnated, it'll take nine months to produce a child, followed by weaning. most women don't want to bang 'em out once a year, in spite of the papal imperative. so more is not better for a woman. they tend to be choosy. their best strategy for long-term gene forwarding is to find a quality partner who will shelter and provide so's the progeny can be successful.
rather than responding directly to these type comments, I hope to add a consideration for critiques of the assumptions implicit in evolutionary psych (jumps taken, in part, because the discipline has the fundamental limit of having no fossil records of human behavior = sophisticated and informed speculation, but speculation nonetheless), more generally, and such statements, more specifically...in particular, the difficulty in disentangling evolutionary pressures and genotype from the dynamic interplay described by Linkliter and colleagues.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 15, 2013 - 11:38am PT
thanks for disentangling that, cowpoke. it's all perfectly clear now.
cowpoke

climber
Jan 15, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
OK, I'm being cryptic, primarily because my post was only intended to be background reading for anyone interested -- take it or leave it material -- and I was not intending to respond to any individual comments in the discussion. In connecting anything I post with "dumps from their friends as positive proof of everything they want to believe" you have both overestimated the extent to which I have friends here and the extent to which anyone takes my posts as proof of anything, let alone read my posts. That would take social capital, and I have none, here.

But, you've adequately baited me into a bit more, and I am persuaded by the ideas in the article to which I referred. So, let me take a shot at greater clarity by linking the article to one of your posts. To get there, you'll have to let me quote a bit more of the source and your comments, however.

Relevant (i.e., consistent with the author's argument on limits to evo psych) to the NY Times piece that was posted and in response to what I think you are arguing when you wrote things such as
due to the very nature of gender, for forwarding their personal genes into spacetime.

and
their best strategy for long-term gene forwarding is to find a quality partner who will shelter and provide so's the progeny can be successful.
I think Lickliter & Honeycutt are right on target when stating:
Like Mayr, most evolutionary psychologists argue for the heuristic value of the conceptual decoupling of proximate (ontogenetic)
and evolutionary (phylogenetic) levels of explanation (see Buss, 1999; Crawford, 1998; Daly & Wilson, 1978; Gaulin &
McBurney, 2002). Furthermore, most assume that evolutionary factors are somehow ontologically prior to and more fundamental
than proximate factors in directing phenotypic outcomes. This viewpoint is evident in nearly all current evolutionary accounts of
human behavior and development (but see Bjorklund & Pellegrini, 2002, for a well-developed exception). Lickliter and Berry (1990) termed this dichotomous conceptual framework the phylogeny fallacy. The phylogeny fallacy is based on the assumptions (a) that phylogeny and ontogeny are alternative processes by which information is made available to the developing individual and (b) that specification for an organism’s phenotype can exist independently and in advance of its real-time developmental processes (see also Ingold, 2001; Oyama, 1985). This framework is based (often implicitly) on a strong form of genetic predeterminism and ignores or downplays the fundamental role of developmental processes in the realization of all phenotypic characters or traits.

Ed, can correct me if wrong, but it seems to me that his question of "how do you know if that seemingly reasonable scenario isn't just a retelling of the ways things are, Tony?" is a concise way of asking you to consider the same fallacy that Linkliter is calling to your attention. To me your comments read as if you are making an assumption of selective pressure primacy in your explanation of human mating behavior. To do so, is problematic.

edit: in re-reading my post, I realized that to correctly use the "let alone" phrase, I should have written: "the extent to which anyone reads my posts, let alone takes my posts as proof of anything."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 17, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
re: evolutionary ecology

Guinea worm symbiosis is an interesting evolution. It seems it is about to be eradicated once and for all.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_worm

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4kQWvUv_Ns

Parasites are another meaning to the "we are survival machines" idea.



So your foot feels like it's on fire - submerge it in this water.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 18, 2013 - 01:37am PT
Ed, can correct me if wrong, ...
you answer is better than my question, but yes, while it seems easy to make up some hypothesis regarding the origins of behavior it is more difficult to actually pin it on some bit of the genetic material.

The NYTimes came to the rescue today, though, Study Discovers DNA That Tells Mice How to Construct Their Homes
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/science/mouse-study-discovers-dna-that-controls-behavior.html

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v493/n7432/full/nature11816.html

Discrete genetic modules are responsible for complex burrow evolution in Peromyscus mice

Jesse N. Weber, Brant K. Peterson & Hopi E. Hoekstra

Relative to morphological traits, we know little about how genetics influence the evolution of complex behavioural differences in nature. It is unclear how the environment influences natural variation in heritable behaviour, and whether complex behavioural differences evolve through few genetic changes, each affecting many aspects of behaviour, or through the accumulation of several genetic changes that, when combined, give rise to behavioural complexity. Here we show that in nature, oldfield mice (Peromyscus polionotus) build complex burrows with long entrance and escape tunnels, and that burrow length is consistent across populations, although burrow depth varies with soil composition. This burrow architecture is in contrast with the small, simple burrows of its sister species, deer mice (P. maniculatus). When investigated under laboratory conditions, both species recapitulate their natural burrowing behaviour. Genetic crosses between the two species reveal that the derived burrows of oldfield mice are dominant and evolved through the addition of multiple genetic changes. In burrows built by first-generation backcross mice, entrance-tunnel length and the presence of an escape tunnel can be uncoupled, suggesting that these traits are modular. Quantitative trait locus analysis also indicates that tunnel length segregates as a complex trait, affected by at least three independent genetic regions, whereas the presence of an escape tunnel is associated with only a single locus. Together, these results suggest that complex behaviours—in this case, a classic ‘extended phenotype’—can evolve through multiple genetic changes each affecting distinct behaviour modules.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 18, 2013 - 05:35am PT
Assertions of polyandry have nothing to do with sociology or psychology, but rather everything to the evolution of the human male and [particularly] female reproduction system relative to sperm competition.


I think you are confusing terms here. Perhaps in an attempt to be politically correct and gender sensitive you are using the term polyandry instead of female promiscuity? Or perhaps biology uses the terms differently than anthropologists do? Either way it illustrates some of the complexities of sociobiological theory and the effect of socio-cultural decisions on human gene selection and evolution.

Polyandry as used by anthropologists is a type of marriage - multiple husbands, the mirror opposite of polygyny - multiple wives. Like all forms of marriage it can be co-related with subsistence type and mutual obligations - a long ways from a Hollywood party. Some 70% of the world's societies and probably an even larger percentage of males prefer polygyny. Polyandry by contrast is favored by less than 1% of societies and who knows how many women if they were to think about it and speak frankly?

Polyandry is primarily associated with marginal environments and the need to limit population. Traditionally it has been practiced by Eskimos, very high altitude mountain people, a few desert and island people, and some military societies where male mortality is high. The most widely practiced form is the marriage of 2 or 3 brothers to one wife. Three brothers sharing a wife will produce 1/3 as many children as would occur if each had his own. If practiced generation after generation, it causes the quality of the farm land to be increased through concentrated male labor and the number of mouths to fee to remain the same.

Fraternal polyandry in particular will limit the variety of male genes passed on, especially in a society that also has a large number of both male and female monastics. Since it is most widely practiced in areas of Tibetan cultural influence, it may even have been a factor in their rapid adaptation to extreme cold and altitude.

Polygyny will of course foster the genetic predominance of some men over others, and cousin marriage (1/3 of the world's recorded societies prefer to marry cousins) will have another effect. Brother sister matings definitely concentrate genes as the Inca and Hawaiian royalty as well as the Pharoahs and their successors the Ptolemys, demonstrated. Never underestimate human ability to manipulate nature under the guise of something else which is defined by culture.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 18, 2013 - 06:46am PT
Jan: Or perhaps biology uses the terms differently than anthropologists do?

Yes, it's more a PC thing in biology.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 18, 2013 - 07:55am PT
I appreciate the effort! It's hard for all of us to get it right, whatever that eventually turns out to be.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2013 - 09:16am PT
I gotta say, I love the animal studies. Both that last post by Ed and the last two or so by HFCS are the types of discoveries, grounded in the natural world, that I've always found so interesting about this subject. Dawkins, a zoologist, gives dozens of cool examples of animal behaviour in his various books. As HFCS noted, he is a big proponent that the organism is just a short-term host for genes, whose digital information can last 100s of millions of years.

On the other hand, I'm finding those epigenetic papers a little technical and hard to wrap my head around. If that was my introduction to this subject, I don't think that I would have the passion for it that I do. Having sad that, I'm determined to slog my way through this.
cowpoke

climber
Jan 18, 2013 - 09:53am PT
I think some of the more interesting new stuff on bidirectional gene-environment relations is the work on mind body interventions for health problems. There is a ton of randomized trial evidence now for a variety of interventions (and a variety of health problems): see, for example: http://www.jabfm.org/content/16/2/131.full

from the abstract:
there is considerable evidence of efficacy for several mind-body therapies in the treatment of coronary artery disease (eg, cardiac rehabilitation), headaches, insomnia, incontinence, chronic low back pain, disease and treatment-related symptoms of cancer, and improving postsurgical outcomes.


And, relevant to this discussion, many now believe that one important mechanism are the positive consequences of meditation, prayer, etc. on gene expression.

See, for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2818254/

We propose that clinical symptoms may be modified by mind-body therapies through several interrelated mechanisms, including: (a) activation of specific EHN structures, resulting in functional cortical (and subcortical) reorganization and improved interhemispheric balance; (b) more efficient cortical modulation of limbic and brainstem homeostatic centers and enhanced peripheral-central integration of information, expressed at the periphery as a change in autonomic (sympathovagal) balance and immune (pro-inflammatory cytokine profile) function; (c) re-patterning of primary interoceptive and higher-order homeostatic representations, resulting in more adaptive long-term psychophysiological responses as well as reduced expression of adverse symptoms; and (d) modulation of the epigenetic regulators (e.g., growth factors, hormones, histone function, DNA methylation) that can mediate cellular responses to environmental stress. In this way, mind-body therapies ameliorate symptoms via influence at multiple levels, from gene expression (cellular level) to the interaction of cortical brain regions that mediate systemic responses to internal and external challenges, including stress.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jan 18, 2013 - 10:30am PT
i can only speak to #1, and my answer is NO!

1) our obsession with germs is weakening our immune systems, which means we'll die at a faster rate than we reproduce...

2) which leads us to our culturally-induced slowing birth rate, which weakens the gene pool

3) technology also means more of a level playing field for the less intelligent, which weakens the gene pool

4) technology is making us dumber; we're losing basic survival skills
cowpoke

climber
Jan 18, 2013 - 10:38am PT
For those interested, more generally, in the relevance of epigentic processes for human behavior and development, there is a very nice 2005 Psych Bull review of epigentic inheritance: http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic225800.files/epigenetic.pdf

Because Psych Bull is the top review journal in psychology, it is written for a generalist audience. Another reason I really like it is because the author generously cites Gilbert Gottlieb's theoretical work (IMO, Gottlieb is responsible for ending the nature/nuture debate among psychologists, by introducing epigenetic principles to the field.).

abstract:
Currently, behavioral development is thought to result from the interplay among genetic inheritance, congenital
characteristics, cultural contexts, and parental practices as they directly impact the individual. Evolutionary ecology points to another contributor, epigenetic inheritance, the transmission to offspring of parental phenotypic responses to environmental challenges—even when the young do not experience the challenges themselves. Genetic inheritance is not altered, gene expression is. Organismic pathways for such transmission
exist. Maternal stress during the latter half of a daughter’s gestation may affect not only the daughter’s but also grand-offspring’s physical growth. The author argues that temperamental variation may be influenced in the same way. Implications for theory and research design are presented along with testable predictions.
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