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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
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David Blanco Rodriguez won Stage 7 and leads the general classification ;-)
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Aug 24, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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Someday, some way, when you do something that you believe is fair and honest and as a result, get excessively prosecuted in this country, you may feel you have something in common with Lance Armstrong.
Allegations are not facts. Claims of having evidence are not evidence.
A US agency's assertion of control over a French sporting event is an example of how excessive the prosecution of Lance Armstong has become.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
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Anyone who thinks an ego maniac like Armstrong who has financiial resources would not fight the charges IF he thought he had a chance of prevailing is not being reasonable.
I've defended people falsely accused by a government or an organization with resources far beyond my clients' means -- and several of those clients were multi-millionaires. In addition, I was in a court with rules of evidence, due process rights, and the burden of proof on the other side. They often got worn down by the process -- particularly if the penalty wasn't that great.
Dealing with the USADA is almost the exact opposite. An accused athlete has about as much chance as a defendant before the Queen of Hearts. Off with his head, then let's have the trial.
I perfectly understand why anyone would refuse to legitimize a proceeding that appears stacked against him. I understand it even more when, as here, Armstrong already proved what he could do on the road, and no one accuses him of doing something any of his main rivals were not doing.
The USA, with all of its resources (and, believe me, the Justice Department has lots of them) couldn't find enough evidence for an indictment, which speaks volumes. Instead of engaging Armstrong in an arena where he can fight back, his detractors choose one where the accused has virtually no rights.
If anything, I think the onus is on the USADA to come forward with its evidence (as opposed to its accusations) to satisfy a substantial portion of the public that sees this as a witch hunt. Riley may be right; LA may deserve the greatest of contempt. Our problem is that the USADA hasn't shown us satisfactory proof of that, and we aren't willing just to take their word for it.
Besides, it appears that I not only may have ksolem on my side (as is often the case), but Curt, El Cap, and Dr. F. as well. We must be right!
John
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
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+1 Yosemite 5.9...Hello extraterratorial jurisdiction...stuff kids learn to stamp out in the sandbox.
Having witnessed first-hand how out-of-control some folks become when given even the smallest amount of power, specifically in the context of a corporate arbitration in which the arbitrators acted directly against the terms of the contract the parties had signed, and further, in direct opposition of the very clear applicable state law, I wouldn't trust the "witch hunter" as far as I could toss him. Do you think he would keep his job if he DIDN'T do everything possible to close the deal (moral or immoral or just plain depraved)?
I'm curious...
...How many people did he threaten/promise leniency/promise immunity to come up with his list of "witnesses"?
...What is his compensation structure? Requirements to keep his job?
...Is his position an "appointed" one?
...What did he do before taking on this glorious assignment that has kept him in the public spotlight for...years?
I believe Lance Armstrong is a good man, not a perfect man. Not one of us is perfect. But Lance Armstrong has done more in his short 40 years than many others of us, and I have a soft spot for people who do good things for others (and have, shall we say, an uncommonly enormous amount of excess energy?). He didn't have to start a charitable organization...he chose to.
Lance Armstrong is a father at the end of the day. Perhaps this is his way of setting an example for his children...nothing is worth putting loved ones through Hell just to prove a point. If Lance can look at himself in the mirror at the end of the day, and feel good about who he is as a person, then that's really the only thing that matters. The rest is between him and the Universe...not the rest of us fellow (imperfect) human beings.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
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...How many people did he threaten/promise leniency/promise immunity to come up with his list of "witnesses"?
According to NPR's report on it today, over a dozen.
I'm not stating an opinion, just telling what I heard.
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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Eyewitness testimony is very unreliable and easily falsified. Watch the movie "My Cousin Vinny" as an example.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
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Wow this is bogus.
Having been involved with Motorsports for 20 years I see this like this...
At a race you have this thing called TECH ..... every car goes through it before the racing and the lucky few who win, place, show or get picked at random... you get your stuff torn apart. You get your car returned in bits and pieces.
This is because folks in sports cheat, all the time.
To hold fair races the governing body must have fair and open tech. All the good ones do this.
Its important to get the cheaters and get them out.
When we hold races it is important to do the tech and declair a winner ASAP.
The day of the race is best, but sometimes it gets delayed because you need to send a fuel sample out for testing at the NHRA or USAC lab. Or one time we sent a motor back to Austria for a teardown inspection.
This never takes more than 2 weeks at most.
I find it almost impossable to believe that it has taken them 13 years to test and retest samples.... I guess its one of those things that went like this.... "Look, go back and test those samples again.... dont come back till you get the right results"
Well I figure if they couldn't catch him on the days of the races .... and for seven more years, then the test they use is flawed.... they are weak in the testing they do and they didn't do a very professional job of testing. Pretty bogus.
So no matter what they say.... LA won 7 TDF, period, end of story.
So next year when they run the thing I wont care at all about who wins or loses because the folks who run the event don't know squat about how to controll their own event.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
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JEleazarian
Thanks for your post, makes sense if that's the case.
I personally hope Lance doesn't lose his TDF titles.
That would suck tremendously and be an outrage in my opinion ......
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Some Random Guy
Trad climber
San Franphsyco
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
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whatever, this is all bullsh#t
let 'em do steroids or whatever performance enhancing anything that they want. i would love to see the olympics in the format. allow them to do as much of whatever they wanted to to perform better. now that would be interesting and very entertaining.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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Lance had two lieutenants(Tyler Hamilton, and Floyd Landis) admit to doping.
If Lance knew about it(and undoubtedly he did)why didn't he stop it? Seems that he would want to just to avoid association.
Note: I've followed pro racing for almost twenty five years, have done road bike teetees, and raced mountain bikes.
I was a Lance fan in the beginning, but he got too cocky, and arrogant.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
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The agency (USADA) also said it had blood tests from 2009 and 2010 that were "fully consistent" with blood doping."
I'm really curious about that. If that is the only actual blood test related evidence they have and Armstrong had over 500 to 600 "clean" test results during his TDF years, then attempting to yank his TDF titles based on that is complete BS.
Curt
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
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whatever, this is all bullsh#t
let 'em do steroids or whatever performance enhancing anything that they want. i would love to see the olympics in the format. allow them to do as much of whatever they wanted to to perform better. now that would be interesting and very entertaining.
Sadly, not really. Famously, the East German Olympics team doped heavily during the 70s and 80s. Long term health effects on athletes were terrible:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany
And here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/nov/01/athletics.gdnsport3
It's ben a whack-a-mole game ever since. And yes, curiously enough, testiculat cancer is one of the health problems.....
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
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what gets me about all of this is the hypocrisy of them going after lance and turning a blind eye to the prevalence of doping in all the major money sports in this country. there's probably not a player in the nfl who hasn't doped. biking hardly registers in this country. who's even following the veulta right now?
Amen! Why so much fuss over a mere cyclist . . . even with the exposure Lance has brought to the sport, it (cycling) remains insignificant in the U.S., save for a small percentage of individuals. The hypocrisy involved in this witch hunt is unbelievable . . . America worships the NFL and all the steroid enhanced players beating the sh#t out of one another. You know damn well those sanctioned users of performance enhancing drugs would never be subject to a crusade like the one to disgrace Mr. Armstrong.
America loves to hate . . . America is founded on deception.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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I'm guessing the OOSADA bureaucrats have much to gain financially and politically by crucifying Lance and busting his ball...I also think it is outrageous that they think it is within their juristriction to take his titles away besides being too long after the fact...This is another tax payer sponsored boondoggle...Who's next on the USADA hit list...? Lebron James...?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
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What's chicken-sheeit in all this is that Armstrong played by the rules of the game and he won.
The testers had carte blanche to test at any time and all times and, as far as has been published, never failed him on a test in the hundreds of attempts to flunk him.
This is a vendetta, which originated in France and has been picked up by the Uswhatjamcallits.
Let's see the comparative statistics on who among all the bicycle peddlers was tested and how often.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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The root of all this is the money and fame of this competition. The same incentives that make business cheat and pollute and government invade countries that are no threat.
People that bike for fun don't do this, and people who climb for fun don't dope either (you know what I mean)
This is what cutthroat competition with a lot at stake does. How you gonna change that without creating a worse police state in the sport than already exists?
The way things are set up now, and the way our society rolls, this is what we get. Wanna go after LA? Go after em all~! Total witch hunt!
What then
peace
Karl
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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I don't know if this has been posted up-thread but this is the best thinking I've seen on the doping debacle:
Here's the pull quote:
"I don’t know if Armstrong did the things he’s accused of doing, and neither do you. I don’t know if these witnesses are telling the truth, and neither do you. I do know two things: First, he passed all his tests. And second, if he had failed a drug test, and brought in 10 people to testify that they were with him every minute of every day leading up to the test and he never ingested anything, never injected anything, never doped his blood, would we be having this debate today? No, because he would have failed a drug test, and all the testimony in the world wouldn’t matter.
It can’t work both ways. Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn’t. "
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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^^^^ That's an excellent point.
Curt
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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The big gotcha he has on his head is:
Trafficking, Administration to others
He doesn't even have to be found guilty ever of using any dope on himself.
But Trafficking, and administration to others qualifies as guilty.
It's a total bummer this whole thing.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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Trafficking, Administration to others
It seems the judicial inquisition would have nailed him here if there was evidence.
Did anybody watch these races on TV, wasn't that Armstrong peddling his ass off there, or was it someone else?
Put every single rider (or at least the top ones) under the microscope as has been done with Armstrong.
Come back and publish the results.
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