Trad Experts - How hard?

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JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Aug 29, 2012 - 04:01pm PT

Oh, standards have definitely gone up (as they always have), but it has happened within the context of a veritable explosion in the demographic.

Exactly. And the demographic has been exploding (in the eyes of existing climbers) forever as well. I think of Tom Higgins's play "In Due Time," published, I believe, in the 1972 Ascent, or Roper's "Look What's Happened to Climbing" section in the intro to the 1971 (green) Yosemite guide. Both pointed out all the new climbers.

The rest of the argument is probably just arguing over the definition of "rare." Is the top 1% "world class?" It depends on the activity. If you're talking, say, golf, the answer is a resounding "no!" The top 1% isn't nearly good enough. Climbing? Maybe 50 years ago in the US, it was. Not now.

But 1% sure seems rare to me. Yes, I know plenty of "no-name" climbers who regularly climb at a much higher standard than 5.11, but I know many, many more that never even attempt to climb at that level, even on sport routes.

John

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

El Dorado Hills, CA

Aug 29, 2012 - 04:18pm PT

I enjoy watching 5.13 climbers fail on the 5.9 Travelers Buttress.

That being said, i doubt I could even get off the ground on the 5.13 climbs they do.

Grippa

Trad climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Aug 29, 2012 - 04:51pm PT

Like Ron said above "The FA onsight". Highly coveted and highly respected. I've never tried harder than this past summer on a new route here in the SLC mountains trying to onsight a 5.10+ finger and wide hands crack that was gritty with lichen on the feet. A glorious experience!

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Aug 29, 2012 - 05:48pm PT

I enjoy watching 5.13 climbers fail on the 5.9 Travelers Buttress.

That being said, i doubt I could even get off the ground on the 5.13 climbs they do.

"5.13 climber" means little. You could have been observing someone with just a few years’ experience on plastic, several years on many different types of rock in Europe with no crack experience - or just a lying wanker.

The implication that a 5.9 OW (and a soft one at that) is somehow so f'n mysterious, cryptic, or requires musculature never used in any other style of climbing, and that these things take years or even decades to acquire - pull your head out of your butt people! Let them spend 1 hour on that pitch and see where they get compared to you spending 1 hr on a 5.13. Take a day if you want and compare that, maybe even a year or two.

As for sticking a nut in the rock vs clipping a bolt - BFD. It's a skill to learn, and it's far easier and quicker to pick up than learning and adapting your body to climb hard.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

El Dorado Hills, CA

Aug 29, 2012 - 05:54pm PT

JLP,
Ummmm hi, nice to meet you???? I think???

Dude, I never said they would never figure it out.
I also said I could not touch the 5.13 they climb.

Man, you need some decaf...

I'm of the thought that the 5.10 syndrome of yore will die with a generation.
I see gym climbers come out and in a few days they are flying up the 10's that scare the "OLD KNOW IT ALLS".

I frequently say that we are not far away from the Nose on EL Cap becoming just a day route. A bivy will be considered a failure.

Now dude, lighten up.... It's rock climbing. It does not matter.

EDIT: To be clear, I have seen MULTIPLE self proclaimed high grade climbers fail on TB. No big deal, but I speak the truth.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Aug 29, 2012 - 05:55pm PT

As for sticking a cam in the rock vs clipping a bolt - BFD. It's a skill to learn, and it's far easier and quicker to pick up than learning and adapting your body to climb hard.

Well, given it's likely less than 20% of all climbers actually climb trad, and 90% of those who do typically lead 2-3 grades below their sport level, I'd say there's a bit more to it than just plunging your mechanical manhood into eagerly awaiting cracks or everyone would be doing it and leading at their sport level.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Aug 29, 2012 - 06:01pm PT

^^^
JLP speaks truth.

As said before, onsighting is a silly standard for "climbing ability". What goes in a handful of tries is more realistic as a yardstick. Especially once you get off the novice 10s and 11s and get on some actual hard routes. Hard routes where beta is trickier, routes are less forgiving of errors in sequence, pacing, errors in where to stop and place gear so you're not placing from the pumpiest stances, where to place it so you're not obscuring crucial locks, etc.

You can make every error in the book and still onsight 5.10. I know because I do it, often. Wrong sequences, placing gear from pumpy spots only to climb three moves higher and find a hidden jug or restful stance, having to pull V3 boulder problems around 10a sections because I just filled up the bomber lock with a piece of gear.

And Healy is right that most people just don't give a sh#t about certain styles of climbing enough to pursue them to the point of competency. But I guarantee you I can take a 5.13+ sport climber who only climbs overhanging limestone clip-ups and make them a 5.11 OW climber a hell of a lot easier and faster than making a 5.10 all-arounder a 5.11 OW climber.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

El Dorado Hills, CA

Aug 29, 2012 - 06:04pm PT

But I guarantee you I can take a 5.13+ sport climber who only climbs overhanging limestone clip-ups and make them a 5.11 OW climber a hell of a lot easier and faster than making a 5.10 all-arounder a 5.11 OW climber.

That is so the truth.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Aug 29, 2012 - 06:07pm PT

I'm of the thought that the 5.10 syndrome of yore will die with a generation.

No offense to the general ST.com demographic, but I'd say among those actively climbing, it died several years ago.

BTW, I quoted you, took a break, answered a call, then came back and thought I was replying to someone else - but really it's directed to the general view those statements represent.

This thead has gone in a couple circles now, back to the same place with the same people bringing up the same points. Seems done to me.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Aug 29, 2012 - 06:07pm PT

And I would be inclined to agree with you.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

El Dorado Hills, CA

Aug 29, 2012 - 06:08pm PT

JLP

I'm an active climber
I'm not old
You owe a beer.... A COLD beer

Roadie

Trad climber

Bishop, Ca

Aug 29, 2012 - 08:02pm PT

onsighting is a silly standard for "climbing ability"?

Huh? in my book onsughting is the ONLY standard to measure climbing ability. You can climb however you like, I'd just rather not reduce climbing to a Gymnastics routine.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Aug 29, 2012 - 08:17pm PT

Ghoulwej.....do I detect a little ageism, I'm a very active climber and I'm also old.....ask Roadie.

Old climbers don't have to work. Work interferes with climbing more than arthritis.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Aug 29, 2012 - 08:21pm PT

+1 for Riley.....come watch the Euro show at IC this Fall.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Aug 29, 2012 - 08:23pm PT

To agree with the above "quote" leads me to conclude that you probably havent lead a lot of offwdith

Well, you have me there...

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

El Dorado Hills, CA

Aug 29, 2012 - 08:26pm PT

Donini, No ageism here.
I was responding to the reference:

No offense to the general ST.com demographic, but I'd say among those actively climbing, it died several years ago.

I know you're an old light weight wanna be climber who carries large cams to "compensate" ;)

Actually I've been thinking about hitting you up for some climbing days together (if I can find time to get out your way) so I can get "schooled by the master".
Cheers,
Jay Renneberg

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Aug 29, 2012 - 08:28pm PT

Anytime Jay, do you know how to do a 3:1 hauling system?

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

El Dorado Hills, CA

Aug 29, 2012 - 08:31pm PT

Yes

Roadie

Trad climber

Bishop, Ca

Aug 29, 2012 - 08:45pm PT

I once watched two 5.13 sport climbers from Smith try to climb Pente, a very easy 5.11- hand crack in Indian Creek. They both spent well over an hour on it, on top rope. It was quite amusing. By the time they gave up they were reduced to a bloody, pus spewing, quivering mass of deflated shame. They never did make it to the anchors. They never did come back.

On a related topic, does anyone know who this JPL person is?
Whenever I go on a rant I try to attach my real name. that way people will know who to hate. But maybe that’s just an old school wanker kind of thing. Like integrity.

Since JPL seems to have gone off his meds, again, I think the best thing for everyone to do is just ignore his little rants and let the people in the white coats deal with him.

Just a thought, Steve Seats