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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 15, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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OT Marmot sez "C'mon guys. Let's not destroy another good thread attacking each other...let it go and let's go eat some flowers...it will be ok..."
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 15, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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It's an actual route.... The rohrer rap route... Why is it so irresponsible? Big effing deal, they screwed up somehow. We don't even know what happened and it's all "oh whatta bunch a morons, I'd never do that!"
Edit: fair enough. But just so it's clear, I was ragging on all Christians
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 15, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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Don't bag on Dean for his faith, that's wack.
He's speaking from an SAR standpoint.
I'm a heathen like many of you, but god bashing is lame.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 15, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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...god bashing is lame.
Nope.
Too general a statement. Like "Don't judge."
God bashing in poor style is lame. Big difference.
......
He's speaking from an SAR standpoint.
If so, then he should say so, that he is speaking from that one narrow perspective. He doesn't.
The fact is, he tends to see things - many things - in black n white... which poorly reflects adventuring in the mountains, the whole of it; or the wide variation in human interests or values that we humans bring to this activity.
Climbing activities are inherently trouble. We all draw our lines differently. Most of us respect this.
Bottom line: there is no absolute morality across all living things. That's the viewpoint of many. Not in life. Certainly not in climbing or mountaineering or whatever the risky outdoors venture. Where to draw the line - before the crux of the biscuit or after? that is the question.
"Oh yeah, says who?"
.....
Apart from the rappellers themselves of course, let's remember what started the main thread brouhaha ...
"They should be prosecuted..."
"Oh yeah, says who?"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 15, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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I have a hard time believing the SAR guys weren't totally delighted to do this rescue.
The Climber SAR guys don't get a penny unless they are working a rescue and this one would be super cush with no grueling carry-out.
And the Rangers, who do get paid otherwise, have to feel good about doing something exciting and beneficial to somebody rather than more mundane duties.
I might be an expenditure of money I admit but hey, they go up on El Cap to train now and then so what's the diff?
For the guys involved. Wonder what made him continue past the lip of the great roof when he could see the end of his rope right there?
PEace
karl
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 15, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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Rohrer's rap routes from almost any place on the Nose have sure helped people over the years. It isn't that noticeable. I'm living proof that you can go from way up an overhanging route to the ground in only a few hours, sometimes not even coming down your own route. You just see a convenient line of anchors and off you go.
Then the sun comes out and you feel like a dufus.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 15, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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Yes Rohrer's Nose rap route in particular has saved countless rescues from happening.
The retreat factor is overwhelming over all these years.
There was a guy soloing the Nose years ago late in the season and got hit by a massive rain and snow storm as he was topping out.
He encountered waist deep snow at the top.
He decided to rappel the route (Nose) back to the ground.
A rescue operation was avoided ......
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 15, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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If it is true that they were rescued at the anchor by the Great Roof or in the area now makes sense that they could not make or retrieve their second rope.
Their ropes or the one being pulled down got hung up, Rohrer corrected this problem by placing an anchor 25m above the roof below camp 5 on route so this would not happen, they should have rapped to this anchor or the correct one.
Taking a guess will have to wait till chris gives his version.
Climbing back up on stuck rope is spooky since that rope says OK! I give in I will come out of the spot now when the climber is 3/4 up and now takes a screamer. If a back up system is not in place and by bringing couple of cams, pins whatever might have but I say might have corrected the problem.
Which brings up a subject for discussion should they be marked as in placing a small colored tag or with additional stealth reflection as when using a light pointing down during the night will reflect back for observation.
Day time with the sun hitting it, wind blowing, people might not like the sparkling effect but this can be corrected by using creative thinking on how to approach this problem.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 15, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
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Cragman
Calling these guys "a-holes" here, right off the bate nullifies & voids everything you stand for with your arguments in your so called "sar professionalism" relating to this incident.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 15, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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For the record, I know Chris rather well actually. Took him up the EB on Whitney a couple years back when he was 16
so we can blame is lack of judgment on his age
Like I posted, Chris is a good solid respectable young man with some multi-pitch Grade III/IV climbing background experience etc.
what does this have to do with rapping the Nose?
did you also mentor him on the fact that rapping is the most dangerous part of climbing?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 15, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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lostinshanghai,
I think you misunderstood the cause of the stuck rappeller.
It was not a stuck rappel rope.
Instead, one person rapped off the left side of Camp 5 instead of the right side.
So he could not reach the next anchor down.
Then, since he did not know how to reascend the rope, he was stuck.
Strangely they had a third rope to handle a stuck rope, and a rack to lead pitches, but no ascenders or prusik knowledge to handle this basic problem.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 15, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
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Clint
Ok! stand corrected. that area is where one can make a mistake that is why Tom made some changes. He plans to be in the valley tommorrow. He is setting up camp at Crane Flat today. I am sure you guys will get together.
Breakfast in the morning at the same place.
And true about your last thoughts.
Somehow rumors of no jugs, yes there were jugs so looked to me a lot of misinformation but finally coming out. Thanks
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 15, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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...did you also mentor him on the fact that rapping is the most dangerous part of climbing?
Yup! And right back at ya... "what does this have to do with rapping the Nose?"
Just to set the record straight, rapping is NOT the most dangerous part of climbing. Look at any report of climbing injuries and fatalities. It is perhaps one of the most dangerous parts, but it ain't in first place, or even all that close.
From what I've seen in published reports, most dangerous part is just what you'd expect: leader falls, pro either pulls or isn't close enough to prevent injury/death.
So we should at least give credit to these young men for correctly identifying the most dangerous part of climbing (leading) and removing that from the equation. Still their execution was flawed.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 15, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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There wasn't a lot good advice given here when he came for advice. Things like "don't do it!", "rappeling is lame", or "climb instead", didn't give the OP reasons why he shouldn't do it. It just comes off as bitching.
If folks said things like: a lot of the rappel stations are not where your expect them to be, the rappel line is not the climbing line, you need to know how to free a stuck rope, if you can't unstick a stuck rope you need to know how to ascend a rope that may give way at anytime, you should be aware of the loose blocks on the route that can kill you or others, you should practice rappeling some other less commiting multipitch climbs first. Have you ever climbed Royal Arches? If not it's fun climbing plus you'll be able to practice rappeling many pitches and rappeling route finding.
It sounds like the OP IS being held accountable by the law. Did anyone who posted here but didn't give any constructive advice why he shouldn't do it, or how he should be prepared to do it safely feel accountable? I didn't think so.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 15, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
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My comments on this thread were from two perspectives...both SAR and from that of a mentor.
I'm sure Chris is a very nice young man...he came hear for advice...props for that....then against most of the advice given him, and with encouragement from some, he went and did this.
To me there is nothing Mentorish in this statement.
Don't do it.
You come to ST and the very first thing you post is about rappelling arguably the best free climb in the world?
Go back to the gym, and practice your rappelling there....YOSAR has enough to do.
And please show me where anyone encouraged this lad to do this? It just didn't happen. He got advice about anchors from 2 or 3 poeple who had done it.
Mentor my ass. Soap box preacher is more like it.
Prod.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 15, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
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Soap box preacher or not...he's managed, with one post, to generate at least a dozen responses that are all going to lead to the same thing: a decent thread getting totally off topic and getting ruined while you all snipe at each other. Again.
1. Definition of insanity: Doing the same sh#t over and over while expecting different results.
2. Fighting with a troll is like wrestling with a pig in the mud - after a while you should realize that the pig is enjoying it.
So, again - can we please, for once, agree to drop all of this arguing bullshit and stick to the topic? Take the religious stuff back to threads that are there for that purpose.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 15, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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Chris
Correction info, gear, water……. but where to go [I am assuming] and getting the correct anchors is all you needed. So a future try is in order.
You first wrote: “I have read the Tom Rohrer guide but it is geared to doing it when the descent route with bolted raps wasn't established yet. Just had the wrong information “bolted raps were already established’ he updates them now and then with stainless steel. Just needs to work on replacing 2 and plans to make so not to get in the way of teams climbing or going up.
Tom will be in in Crane Flat, today, site #223 for seven days [8/15- 8/22]and plans to be in the valley during that time, the next week starting the 23rd, he will be in the valley for a week in upper pines: Site #24, This way you will have the correct information.
For a 76 year old and still going. He would glad to teach some tricks and techniques. If you cannot find him leave a note at one of the sites and somehow you and your partner can connect. I think there is photos on some threads what he looks like.
Lessons learned, you got that far [Roof], great that is the hardest.
Timing is critical as well or when to start down: Wind factor gets in the equation.
Hope you get to try again: fun rap plus an overnighter on Dolt is nice, Full Moon can be done as well providing taking head lamps and knowing the anchors. But start off with a couple of other smaller routes first until you get better experienced and then go for it.
I made the mistake assuming that your rope was hung up till Clint corrected me. So it happens to all of us.
Edit: Tom will be in the valley till or ending the 28th of Sept. so if your schedule does not work for these first two weeks plenty of time to get in touch.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 15, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
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Cool post lost.I got to meet Tom at the Facelift, we had a talk and he seemed like a pretty cool dude.
Chris isn't the only one out there who thought of doing this for sure - I wanted to rap the Nose to Dolt at one time, but managed to convince myself that I shouldn't be up there unless I earned it. So far, that hasn't happened. But the info we do have sounds like a simple mistake that many could have made, going off route a bit. Just had harder implications then most. I'm sure the TR will probably bring more info to light.
I was going to send you a message regarding your last statement here Cragman, but you seem to have your email disabled. Makes it hard to have a side conversation.
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John M
climber
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Aug 15, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
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He already posted that they had ascenders.. Something happened. He hasn't said what yet. He said that he would tell us this weekend.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 15, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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perhaps i am too old school....but why wouldnt you just carry prusiks and not ascenders. prusiks can work on two rope strands, ascenders wont.
am i missing something here?
regardless, this conversation is hilarious. if cragman had known Chris prior to the incident and Chief hadnt, i could see thier perspctives shifted 180....
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