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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jun 11, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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Well done Karl... And so great to hear from the FA crews. I look forward to climbing again on all of the aprons this fall and to test myself against them ( with them). I just think the FA's should be the starting point. I hope topo's are stilaround of the original formats.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 11, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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That Bridwell: such a wuss.
Jim is the most fearless guy I have ever know or climbed with. It is somewhat amazing that he didn't see those slab routes as great adventures. On the other hand, I would never have gone with him on one of his aid routes or big mountain adventures.
I was normal, and we all know that "A normal person would have died."
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Jun 11, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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Roger and Karl make really good points.
i would like to think that with all the improvements in the gear, harnesses, ropes and most importantly the SHOES now a days that these routes would be a little more secure technique wise than the 70's and 80's when these routes were put up. You still have to have the commitment and the balls to stick it out there, but now you have WAY WAY better shoes and rubber to deal with these challenges. I shudder to think how i would feel on these routes today with the gear and shoes of yesterday (80's high top sloppy fit Fire's).
please remember rock climbing is a CHALLENGE, always was and always should be.
If you can't find the mojo to do these routes then either: train your mind and body to get to that level, find a partner that will rope gun or climb something else.
lots and lots to do out there..
ks
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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How about no more bolts, and just these?
Also, I appreciate the discussion on here. There's never just one right answer
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jun 11, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
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Not sure though as I never had that problem...
Well then those must be some big holes.... Think my shoes could be in one of em?
Prod.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jun 11, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
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Fuked up minds must think alike as the time for BOTH posts on different threads is the SAME...
Proud of that.
Prod.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Jun 12, 2012 - 01:30am PT
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wstmrndmr,
Yes, thanks for getting in touch on Curve Like Her about rebolting it. As I recall, you were perfectly agreeable to replacing the old, making good anchors and not adding any new bolts. Your actions demonstrate it is possible to get in touch with at least some of the FA parties of old climbs to get their perspectives. Of course, then you have the situation of Bob Kamps leaving us, and others still kicking but unreachable or unresponsive. But still, thanks for making the effort to get in touch and I hope others will emulate what you did to the degree possible.
Roger,
I'm OK with fixing "mistakes" too. I gave a couple of examples of where I fixed my own, or told others to do so in their second ascent. But here again, checking with the FA party is the way to determine if they see and agree with the "mistake" when they haven’t already fixed it.
If I remember that first pitch of Peter Peter, it seemed pretty out there. When we did it, we went left (run 5.9) into a little corner to get pro, then back right across the blank 5.9ish area on the main climbing line where no pro was possible. It still was dicey. But what a great route overall. I guess now there is a bolt or two on that pitch.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jun 12, 2012 - 01:50am PT
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I had a friend who was bolting a long, supposedly cool coastal traverse route that he planned to protect with those things (last pic upthread) instead of bolts due to corrosion issues. I wonder how that project is going?
Some good discussion going on here. It's much appreciated.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Jun 12, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
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J-Tree,
I count 11 slab/face routes with X (alone or with R) in your search of Clint's Yosemite climbs. Thanks for the search. There maybe are more since Clint's list probably isn't exhaustive, but let's say there are 20 or 30. If that's the rough number compared to all the Yosemite climbs, I'm wondering why there is such angst and loud call for retro bolting to increase safer climbing opportunities. Even if all these routes were retro bolted, the proportion of new routes with additional protection wouldn't be much. Am I missing something? Maybe it's more the principle of the thing than any big sense of lost opportunities.
Of course, then there are R routes with no X, a larger number I'm sure, but much more uncertain than X as to the severity of danger involved.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Jun 12, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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My analogy using pipeline as an an example was meant to state; match your abilities to the routes you choose ,ie; don't get in over your head. But , I also think that when you're ready - challenge yourself. Also pipeline was first surfed in 1961 by Phil Edwards on a " modern" fiberglass board - not a 135lb koa board. It was Butch Van Arsdale who really was the first to get barrelled regularly at Pipe. Waves are only a moment in time, a climb with bolts -way more permenate. Cheers
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 12, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
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It seems that for an area with so many runout climbs, Tuolumne has had remarkably few deaths or serious injuries as a consequence. Seems like climbers mostly get hurt rapelling, walking down, loose rock, or some other thing. People mostly avoid runout climbs that are too close to their personal limit.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 12, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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Nice one ESU.
I agree, match your ability to a route, but challenge yourself too.
I'm a fence rider here.
Not all routes should be made safe.
Some are testpieces, some are just f*#kups.
One thing that bugs me...and I know it's just a figure of speech...
"dumbing down"
Tell a non climber that a climb went from dangerous to relatively safe and see if they think it's "dumb".
Once again,I know it's just a figure of speech.
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LeeBow
Trad climber
Victoria BC
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Jun 12, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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The argument that if you don't like em don't clip em has a flaw: The question is choice vrs. true danger. When it comes to slabs I can actually be brave some days. There are runouts that I aspire to. Skipping bolts just seems silly to me. In a way it feels kind of like free soloing with a rope hanging next to the route...you can chicken out any time you like.
The argument that those who put up runout routes are all glory seekers must stem from areas with huge climbing populations. I can honestly say that I've been known to drop in a bolt or two just to make sure the route gets in the guide. Yeah, I know that's a stupid jerk thing to do, but it kinda sucks to put a whole lot of effort into cleaning and developing a route just to have the credit go to someone else when they show up a year later and bolt your line.
I don't claim to know the solution but so long as bolt removal continues to be seen as vandalism whilst adding bolts is treated as a public service we're in trouble. I'm pretty sure most land managers would see thing in a very different light.
Please don't get me wrong. I enjoy sport climbing and have rap bolted AND bolted on the lead. Is there really no room for scary climbs?
Worst of all was the notion up thread that keeping an area secret is uncool. I spend alot of time scouting new areas in the off season. Am I now to understand that every single place I find MUST be overpopulated and grid bolted?
Humm...
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Apr 24, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
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Full disclosure: I made an alternate profile and started this thread when I was relatively new to climbing and had one too many "life flashed before my eyes" moments.
The funny thing is that this thread actually changed my mind and I understand both perspectives now. I actually talked to new(ish) climbers recently and tried to explain the benefit of leaving some climbs as-is, despite being ridiculously scary routes up otherwise amazing rock. This thread came to mind and I empathized with their train of thought.
Take heart, supertopo, online arguing can change minds. Some people are listening!!!! (but sometimes runouts are dumb :)
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 24, 2016 - 11:06pm PT
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the problem is that Islam is fatalistic same-same for the run
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 25, 2016 - 07:37am PT
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So? No toproping? :)
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 25, 2016 - 08:45am PT
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It is interesting how much my opinion changed regarding this subject over the years and I wonder how different it will be in 10-20-30 years...
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Apr 25, 2016 - 10:17am PT
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hellava lot more people dying on the couch...i'm concerned about the message couches send to impressionable youth.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 25, 2016 - 11:57am PT
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Can you summarize? I'm curious....
In general, every route is unique and climbers putting them up are too. What is runout for one is well protected for the other. The expectation to leave the route without modifications not approved by the FA is very simple and easy to follow. As with technical difficulties, the fear management is a skill as well. Not every route should be doable for all.
In the past, I mainly had trouble understanding why very advanced slab climbers who created easy R X routes (because drilling sucks and no one wanted to do the work, unless necessary) be against addition of a few bolts to their routes in order to keep the route from being X. In such a case, approval for addition of a few bolts to such climb in a popular area (finite rock) seems logic. However, if I would be ok with someone adding a few bolts to my climb in such a place (or maybe even would do the work myself), it doesn't mean everyone else should or would think like me. And without considering unique circumstances of the climb, as stated above, the norm is to leave the climb as is. When you find something appropriate for your technical skills, but not appropriate to acceptance of risk, you have a choice to throw a top rope over it or save it for the day you feel up to the challenge. If you suck at fingercracks, you wouldn't bring a chisel to widen one to a handcrack...
More thought about the subject led me to a conclusion that most people who talk about adding bolts to existing routes, don't have the skills to do so, nor have a plan for particular routes. When one does, they can actually contact the FA team and ask. For most, however, it is only a topic for hours of empty yapping.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Apr 25, 2016 - 12:31pm PT
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What Vitalis said...
My perspective changed when I was sitting around the campfire with Ron Carson and this subject came up. He is so mellow and there was zero trash or hate in the discussion. He simply thought if a guy saw a line, trained his ass off and put it together on one day of full commitment, maybe his best day, that's it- that's the route, exactly as it was, put up on that day.
To go back and erase a person's achievement, perhaps the culmination of a life's work, with no regard is lame. There's plenty of safe routes out there. Please leave the the epics for those who are willing to relive the emotion of the FA, as intended.
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