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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 05:44am PT
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Well, arrived at this point, I think all positions are clear and we are in a nererending loop...
Have a nice climbs!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 06:04am PT
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Jensen didn't had any intention of answering this questions, otherwise he would have been really interested in having a meeting with them when they were in the Towers last summer
As stated in "ancient" posts, this is certainly not Jensen's style.
Further, this has little to do with "American Ego" and much more to do with a lack of cultural sensitivity on the part of the climbing party. As any number of posts in this forum alone address, the most important aspects of good aid climbing style in the US aid climbing culture involve following natural progressions of the rock itself, without drilling or modifying the rock unless absolutely necessary (and then, ensuring that the equipment used is such that the route is sustainable and repeatable by parties that follow). The Wings of Steel thread itself has thousands upon thousands of posts addressing this very issue, something I'm sure you've seen yourself if you have in fact reviewed it.
Additionally, many climbers dislike Pelut's decision to generate a series of drilled placements and call the route A6+. This is, justifiably, considered by many to be an overexaggeration of the route's difficulty to the point of absurdity. (Jeremy's frog picture sums it up nicely, doing 5 sit ups does not make one a bad ass.)
Rivet, I was rather hoping to hear a rational rebuttal to Richard's response, or at least an understandable explanation that didn't involve Ad Hominem and a fallback on "American Ego" and nationalism/prejudice as a defense. But as that is all you seem to present, I think you're undermining your own position at this point.
If you have a reasonable, rational take on the situation to present, I would very much like to hear it. Otherwise, it's time to warm up the pony cannon...
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2012 - 07:25am PT
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otherwise he would have been really interested in having a meeting with them when they were in the Towers last summer
Rivet hanger....
Are you talking about the Summer of 2011 or the Summer of 2012? I was at the Fishers both times (in 2011 in early July). And exactly how would I have known that Pelut was there or when he was? I can tell you that he never emailed me, and I didn't even have the blog UP last Summer, so he didn't post on the blog then. Which "August" are you talking about?
If you're talking about this most recent Summer, 2012, anything Pelut would have posted to my blog in August would have had zero effect on the SA, as the SA was already finished by early July (more than a month earlier). So, WHY would I have cared to meet with Pelut AFTER the SA was finished? I didn't need any "answers" from him at that point. I had by then found the answers on the route itself!
I really don't understand why you are so fixated on my responding to and meeting with Pelut. I've explained why I didn't respond in August (last month), and I have recently responded to those two (very sarcastic) posts. Nothing in Pelut's comments last month contributed any "answers" to anything!
What am I missing here? I honestly don't understand why this is such a big issue to you. If you're trying to make the case that I'm somehow "bad" because I "ignored" Pelut, you are not making that case very well. I'm just confused.
**
You also seem to be holding a double-standard. You make it out like I had some duty to contact Pelut before doing the SA. I didn't (although, actually, I tried last year, but that's another story)!
By contrast, you talk about how awesome Pelut is because (among other things) he did a repeat of Intifada. But if Pelut was going to use the (ridiculous and debunked) "A6" rating of Intifada as the basis for his rating of "Look Out...," he had a DUTY to find out something of the history of that route. Had he done even a superficial search on the Net, he would have found out that Intifada is not considered a "hard" route, that the A6 rating was debunked for over a decade, and that Intifada was nothing special to use as a "standard."
HAD he done this, he would have realized that he was NOT "awesome" for doing some repeat of that route, and he would NEVER have said ridiculous things like: "The A6+ is not a proposal. I have the experience of Intifada, which is rated A6." Intifada was NEVER A6, and that fact has been WIDELY known for over a decade!
So, don't claim that I OWED Pelut some contact before doing his route, yet at the same time fail to recognize that Pelut had an even stronger duty to find out EVERYTHING he could about Intifada before doing a repeat of it, since he was going to use it as THE standard of difficulty and the basis for a whole new aid rating!
You can't have it both ways. And you don't seem to realize HOW much credibility Pelut loses by continuing to claim that Intifada was A6.
I don't know what "hardest aid climbs" in Spain you are talking about. But I CAN say at this point that, based upon what I've seen about how Pelut climbs, he would be unable to repeat even what we would call "moderate" routes on El Capitan in good style. Before Pelut came over here to "make his mark" on the American climbing scene, he should have been IN TOUCH with that scene (even if only by reading!). Then he would have realized that "the standard" he thought he was exceeding was not the REAL standard at all!
You don't claim to have put up "the hardest aid climb in the world" without having done what are the REALLY hard climbs in the US. Call that statement "national pride" if you wish. But the fact remains that many of us know that there are MUCH harder things in the US than Intifada, and if Pelut thought Intifada was hard, then THAT says something (not good) about his level and about "the hardest aid climbs" in Spain that he's done! (Does he use the same tactics on all of his climbs?)
And, I'm sorry, but the video clip of Pelut beating and beating on that pecker, reaching only about 24 inches between placements, really was funny. For a guy telling the world that he is the hardest aid-climber in existence, he should know that the tactics he displayed in that video clip did him no favors! This has nothing to do with nationalities! This has to do with tactics and skills. When we hear Pelut's CLAIMS and then see that video clip, well, sorry, but many of us just naturally laugh.
Finally, what you MOST fail to realize is that how I did the SA of "Look Out" is meaningless when talking about how Pelut did the FA! Bashing on the SA changes nothing about the FA. Bashing on SA does NOT shield Pelut from the legitimate anger we feel about how he did the FA, especially given his CLAIMS about it. No matter how "bad" you claim my SA was, by any measure of "badness" you care to use, Pelut's FA was far, far, FAR worse!
So, you don't keep Pelut from having to "face the music" by bashing on the SA. Regardless of what I did, we all now know the reality of what Pelut did on the FA, and it IS a travesty. And we all now know that Pelut's claims about the route were disingenuous or false. Pics don't lie, and Pelut's own video clips correlate perfectly with the pics. You CANNOT use the drill for virtually every placement and then claim you are awesome! And you cannot use the drill for virtually every placement on a climb in the United States and not catch a lot of heat for it!
Wake up, my friend. You've hitched your cart to the wrong horse... uhhh... pony... whatever.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 20, 2012 - 09:20am PT
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He's just a tool, Mark. Don't bother. They got the message, there is literally no thing you can say that will absolve in his eyes.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:04am PT
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Ok Richy, everything is clear!
But what I exactly critize is that you create an ex profeso web page to explain your epic exploit weeks ago of even beginning the SA. Anyway, you don't contact the authors of the route to at least get the topo, you don't even try to find out who they are and their previous experience (and perhaps nobody better than you should be concerned about that taking in account your story of WOS), you disfigure the route by bolting it under an at least questionable pretext, you injury and acuse them of even lift up a handsaw to invalidate a possible SA, and once Pelut's finds your web page out and contacts you (that was June 23th and what is much more than you did!) and at the beginning of August repeatedly pushes to contact you coz he is the Towers making a new route and repeating Weird Science, you just don't even answer (although you "publish" a post in Supertopo!)... Well, to be honest, you answer on September 17th (One month and a half later!). And meanwhile, all supertopo community applauds your heroic deed without any kind of critic vision (American Aid Climbing inbred coefficient? Just see the 2nd comment down there: http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/09/11/is-new-fisher-towers-aid-route-a-mythical-a6.htm. Perhaps is even yours).
What I think is that your ego was hardly wounded by the not-so-megahyperextreme A5 WOS (just A3+, isn't it?) and you had to discharge your frustration somehow. You downrated Intifada from A6 to A4+ and Ammon downrated your A5 to A3+. Beyer was a little bit more right than you anyway...
Come on man, at least you have what you were searching for: you are the fu--ing superhero of Supertopo and now everybody knows that yours is the biggest Dick in aid climbing planet worlwide! Has Black Diamond contacted you yet?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:13am PT
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Explanation: this is a Pecker. (Pecker, this is The Chief!)
Justification: Crazy people use this to progress when find thin cracks. You must be very carefully because perhaps won't hold your weight in the case of falling down...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:21am PT
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lol google translate.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:23am PT
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you disfigure the route
The concept of disfiguring this travesty of a hole ladder el pinche maricon drilled up a blank wall is about like the idea of deflowering a whore.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:35am PT
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What I think is that your ego was hardly wounded by the not-so-megahyperextreme A5 WOS (just A3+, isn't it?) and you had to discharge your frustration somehow. You downrated Intifada from A6 to A4+ and Ammon downrated your A5 to A3+. Beyer was a little bit more right than you anyway...
This is a completely apples-to-oranges comparison because the aid climbing grade scale has been widely readjusted over the past 30 years, and many "A5" routes from the same rough time period as Wings of Steel are now considered A4 or even A3/+. Also, Ammon had access to modern gear (small cams, etc.) that the FA team didn't (don't know how much this affected the grade but he made a point of mentioning that it helped on certain pitches). Whereas Intifada has been subject to downgrades by multiple parties without any reference (that I can tell) to "new wave/old school" grading discrepancies, nor does newer equipment appear to be a factor; it was just over-graded.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:35am PT
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Dude I saw this rad tower out East, massive first ascent potential. Definite A6 nailing that I saw being done over there by locals, hardcore sh#t.
Here's Weld-it working on a fresh and hot A7-, but he had to paint the f*#kin thing - only way the landowner gave permission. Damn natives...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 10:41am PT
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You're right the Chief! Even in Europe we've heard that all the American Aid Climbers put the feet on the last step of the aiders when hanging of Peckers. This way you save money and don't buy unnecessary iron... In addition of impressing worldwide aid climbers community!
By the way, 3 poundings is enough for a Pecker in vertical mud? (And please, try not to write like a Bronx member, I do not understand slang (although this thread is helping me a lot), sorry! And the same to you ElCap, sorry for my not-native English! I apologize!).
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Sep 20, 2012 - 11:21am PT
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Rivet Hanger = Da Dweeb ?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 20, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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This thread needs a Fish audio rant, badly.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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Sure Chief!
That's why you've repeated hard routes in the Fisher Towers including Intifada, Weird Science, Beaking in Tongues or Death of American Democracy... And needless to talk about your hard ascents in Yosemite or Black Canyon and even your epic first ascents. Youtube is full of your last-step aiders Pecker placing with just 2.5 poundings!
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raymond phule
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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Do you know that the FA team of weird science post on this thread?
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 20, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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Yes!
Jeremy, who gently introduced himself and Paul, who seems to be the most racional in this thread...
Of Jeremy I expect a good report of his coming trip to the Towers of Look out, Danger!, Weird science after Pelut and Ester SA and the new route these Catalans opened in Kingfisher.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 20, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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Rivet Hanger = Da Dweeb ?
Snap, he's onto me...
--- Coz
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 20, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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That vid was a hack job - but he really thinks he's dyno-mite! What a waste
of a couple of minutes - I kept fast forwarding to see if there would be
any climbing.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 20, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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Wow.. that video did suck. Where was the climbing? It's really too bad Pelut repeated Intifada and got the idea that trenching was cool.... I can't believe he would just throw that in the opening montage. They really don't get it.
Edit: I don't even aid climb and even I could tell that he was melding that pecker into the crack and trashing the rock.
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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Wow, rivet hanger... Pelut drilled on Intifada! What's up with that? You accuse me of (I like the up-thread analogy!) deflowering Pelut's whore, but when Mark and I did the SA of Intifada, we never drilled nor added a single hole. Many ascents later your hero, Pelut, has to DRILL on it!?! What's up with that?
I laugh at your WoS references. Since WoS has been "downgraded," Pelut should have NO problem strolling up that route in a couple of days! I urge him to give it a shot. (Uhh... he WILL have to learn to top-step his aiders. That could be a problem.) No need to even BRING a drill up onto the route (we don't trust him with it, btw!). He'll just need smaller hooks than he's used to. But, after all, it's only A3+, so he won't even have to "look out" for any "danger!"
My friend, you can attempt all you want to "get a rise" out of me regarding WoS or the SA of "Look Out! Weak Sauce!" Not gonna happen. I'm pretty secure, and my self-image and success in the world do not revolve around climbing. Even if WoS was actually downgraded, that wouldn't bother me. The WHOLE issue for Mark and I about that route was setting the record straight about what tactics we did and did not use on the FA. That's been settled at this point. Unlike your hero, my ego is not all wrapped up in the rating of such things, and I don't need to make any money climbing... it's not my career. I'm just an amateur, not a way-awesome professional like your hero.
And ALL you say, with ALL the ways you try to dance around the subject, changes nothing about the horrific tactics your hero employs whenever he touches the rock. FA, SA, or just some-A, his tactics are heavy-handed, show NO respect for the rock, show NO understanding of what climbing actually is (conforming oneself to what the rock actually presents), and indicate that he climbs scared ALL the time (sewing up every pitch with at least twice as many placements as are needed). The net effect of his tactics is dramatic and utterly unnecessary rock destruction, as he brings every pitch down to his timid level.
Again, if he's so bad-ass, let him take a shot at WoS, which is only A3+. I think that within ten feet (if he can get that far) he'll realize that what he has been thinking is "hard" is really nothing.
Seriously, Pelut has NO, repeat NO, NO, NO idea what "hard" is, and there are many routes just on El Cap that would teach him that lesson. WoS isn't even a "hard" route! Right? Just look at the rating, so you say. Right? So, seriously, let him try some "moderate" routes here, and perhaps he'll learn how to climb.
Desert rock is NOT for beginners, which is what Pelut seems to be. It's barely even "rock," and it demands special respect and sensitivity (neither of which Pelut seems to have). So he should FIRST learn how to climb on some real rock (such as El Cap granite), learn what "difficulty" actually is and how to negotiate it without heavy-handed tactics, and then, years from now, perhaps he can touch desert rock with some respect!
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