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RDB
Social climber
wa
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At some point someone needs to say what an acceptable percentage is for a broken crampon, for all companies. Is it 1/1000, 1/10000, 1/10000000? Whats the number?
Intentional or not the real issue isn't being addressed but simply ignored, converted to numbers and then we are sent looking for some kind of justification. A justification of BD crampon failures done by the numbers.
Accountant's and engineers' answers, to an actual climbing and climber's problem. A rather personal problem if the faulty crampons end up on your boots.
Yes crampons break. Everyone's crampons. Old story there.
No one educated on the subject would argue that.
But to simply blow off the topic as BD has and continues to do is disengenious at best.
The real point here is not how many crampons per 1000 break. I have already repeated what both BD and REI have said to me in private. The corporations find no reason to be concerned about the % of BD crampons breaking. The number of returned crampons is just not signifigant enough in number to make it economically important to either. I understand that.
I think the real concern is the fact that this particular crampon (BD's stainless horizontals) break in a catastrophic manner. This is not the common crampon break we are seeing here nor has it been seen on any other crampons that I know of in the past 30 years.
Cracks in the frame, broken bars or bent parts are rather uncommon compared to the number of crampons in use world wide but do happen across the various crampon brands. What we generally do not see is a crampon breaking in half and falling off the boot.
There is one slightly similar comparison..that of the stainless front bails on the earlier Darts work hardening in use and failing. Bails have failed. In that particular brand the crampon frames typically do not.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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when did BD become a publicly-traded company? who was majority owner beforehand?
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Tuesday May 11 2011
The $135 million deal announced Monday is being engineered investors Clarus Corp., based in Stamford, Conn.
Clarus said it was paying $90 million in cash for Black Diamond and $45 million for Gregory Mountain Products. Half of the Gregory payment will be in stock at $6 a share and the rest in a seven-year, 5 percent note.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700031206/Utah-gear-maker-Black-Diamond-to-go-public-join-with-another-company.html
FYI our "Oakm" here at ST is also "Oaklem" on NEI. And he seems a little confused on where he lives, "I live near Albany NY and I go to the dacks almost every weekend ". May be he has moved to SLC just recently. Either way he is currently working pretty hard to bad mouth Petzl and support BD on both coasts. Secret agent he isn't...but a Troll, sure.
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spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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So let's say that BD has sold 23,000 pairs of these crampons, as suggested above. And let's assume it would cost BD approximately $50-100 each to recall and replace every single pair with a new pair of a different model or equivalent value in other gear (depending on what their actual cost is per pair sold). This would come out to between $1,150,000 to $2,300,000.
If one person dies before they recall them the legal fees plus settlement/judgement costs could quite easily exceed those amounts, and they would still have to recall all of them, and then they would have a PR disaster on their hands on top of that. Seems like the smart thing would be to just do a recall before that happens. Petzl seems to have figured this out.
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WBraun
climber
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Coz
I highly doubt Metcalf can even respond to this thread.
As the CEO of Black Diamond he would be at risk for anything he says here pertaining to this subject matter.
Just the way it is.
Black Diamond will respond however thru their official channels only I bet.
That's the nature of the corporate world ......
Best of luck guys.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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My guess is that the 23,000 number for crampon sales is ALL crampons sold and not specifically the SS ones.
If this is indeed the case, the computations made about the risk analysis are distortions.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.
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JBC
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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This has been an interesting thread and I certainly agree with those who want an answer from BD on this issue. I doubt that if they have not seen fit to address the issue in the past year they are unlikely to do so now. I don't believe for a minute that this thread will change that. I doubt that even the Taco has that kind of influence. :)
However if those that have information on this issue (particularly those with broken crampons) were to contact the CPSC that might have a tendency to 'focus BD's attention' on answering the issue. One thing worse than a recall is a CPSC MANDATED recall!
JBC
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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So hasn't BD been selling non-stainless sabertooths for a really long time? So shouldn't there be many more pairs of those on the market with many more climbing-years of use on the average pair? Therefore, if the stainless ones are no less durable than the old ones, wouldn't there be many many more failures of the non-stainless ones?
Is there anybody who has had a non-stainless pair have the same failure?
If not, then that is weird, and it seems like there is a problem with the stainless ones.
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Jim Hefner
climber
La Verne, CA
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Time for my .02.
I rarely post on this forum as there are generally, as this thread demonstrates, too many posers, trolls, bullies, and plain old angry negative people. I believe many quality posters are deterred from this place due to the above sorts, lack of moderation, and lack of sub-forums. My apologies for being off topic so quickly but I really wish this place was run differently...
Anyway, I've seen the failed crampons first-hand and have been following the issue over at Cold Thistle (Dane's blog) for awhile. I don't own any of these crampons so I'm not concerned about them failing on me while soloing, run out between screws, or walking off stuff. I am, however, quite concerned by BD's lack of response and/or remedy.
Also, I must say, attacking Dane as not being credible or having an agenda/vendetta with BD is a waste of energy. Dane has been climbing at a super solid level for a very very long time. He is also smart as well as objective in evaluating equipment. He buys most of the stuff he tests and even if 'given' gear to test he reviews it with as much a lack of bias possible. Frankly, I've heard rumors of him taking heat from manufacturers for being 'too objective' (honest) in the past. It is precisely his integrity and consistency in evaluating stuff what has made his blog so valuable to many alpinists.
Anyway, I've been buying and using tons of BD equipment for close to 20 years. I make a good living and drop a lot of cash (at retail) on outdoor/climbing equipment. For perspective I've got at least double BD cams from tiny to #5, draws, hundreds of biners, ledge, fly, bags, packs, lights, tents, ropes, screws, 3 sets of crampons, 3 sets of ice tools, etc. I toss out that likely abbreviated laundry list of stuff not to try to add credibility my point but to rather to say that in the past, because of BD quality, testing, and service I ALWAYS looked to BD first. Now, however, after this single issue with what I believe to be faulty/defective crampons (we can discuss statistics vs quarterly earning separately), I am second guessing ALL the equipment BD makes.
This last paragraph is for the PE (private equity) or other executive officers over at BD likely monitoring this thread. Your lack of response in dealing with this issue is devaluing your brand. (At least your brand as it pertains to hardgoods/gear) If your intention is to focus on softgoods and have little regard for your core users, then my decision to begin to not look to BD first for will have proven to be prophetic.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Hefner hits a homer.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Hefner hits a homer
Grand slam is more like it. Excellent post. Black Diamond's silence on this issue is deafening! I miss the good old days when Chris Harmston (former Quality Assurance Manager at BDE) regularly posted on rec.climbing newsgroup, and am still grateful for his most excellent post after analyzing Dan Osman's jump rope after it was taken down and sent to him. Cheers, Chris!
I rarely post on this forum as there are generally, as this thread demonstrates, too many posers, trolls, bullies, and plain old angry negative people. I believe many quality posters are deterred from this place due to the above sorts, lack of moderation, and lack of sub-forums. My apologies for being off topic so quickly but I really wish this place was run differently...
If you think it's bad now, you should have seen it a couple months ago. Or heaven forbid, in the pre-registration daze. The lack of moderation is actually something to celebrate for the most part. A good example of what knott to do was rock climbing.com with its power-tripping, overzealous moderators. Egos run amok!
The sub-forum idea has been hashed out here too many times to count. Don't hold your breath. In fact, many people including myself admire its simplicity. I wish there were less OT posts, but oh well. You can do your part to make the forum better by emailing C-Mac about specific's when you encounter them. He does care, as his recent spectacular (and overdue) house-cleaning attests.
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WBraun
climber
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"I miss the good old days when Chris Harmston (former Quality Assurance Manager at BDE) regularly posted ....."
Yes plus 10 for that.
That is good business and good customer relations for a company .....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Indeed, it is precisely the reason I would often choose Black Diamond when there were other options...
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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What Black Diamond means to me as a regular buyer of their gear is a product that was built and developed by a young Yvon Chouinard in the Spirit of John Salathe.
Yvon cut through the commercial and economic clutter of price point & value in the late 60's and early 70's and made solid hardware and practical clothing.
If the company looses the culture of quality he created the investors will loose all.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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after 28 years of using chouinard/black diamond equipment,
im probably not going to stop. the equipment bd makes has always performed quite well in the mountains. too bad aboot the crampons
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well, to be fair, somebody should contact BD and ask them to respond here, and then report back of having done so. (Although I find it pretty hard to believe that they don't know about this thread yet.)
I would do it myself, but the last time I called BD Peter wouldn't take my call.
I guess he was too busy figuring out how to separate climbers from cash.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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As a matter of curiosity - is stainless steel cheaper or easier to work with than chrome moly? Just askin.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Not really. The raw stainless is a little more expensive, but not much. The CrMo should be aircraft grade and have all the proper certs as well so the raw material costs probably aren't all that different.
From the FAQs at the British Stainless Steel Association;
Can I use stainless steel at low temperatures?
Austenitic stainless steels are extensively used for service down to as low as liquid helium temperature (-269 deg C). This is largely due to the lack of a clearly defined transition from ductile to brittle fracture in impact toughness testing.
Toughness is measured by impacting a small sample with a swinging hammer. The distance which the hammer swings after impact is a measure of the toughness. The shorter the distance, the tougher the steel as the energy of the hammer is absorbed by the sample. Toughness is measured in Joules (J). Minimum values of toughness are specified for different applications. A value of 40 J is regarded as reasonable for most service conditions.
Steels with ferritic or martensitic structures show a sudden change from ductile (safe) to brittle (unsafe) fracture over a small temperature difference. Even the best of these steels show this behaviour at temperatures higher than -100 deg C and in many cases only just below zero.
In contrast austenitic steels only show a gradual fall in the impact toughness value and are still well above 100 J at -196 deg C. See Selection of stainless steels for cryogenic applications.
Another factor in affecting the choice of steel at low temperature is the ability to resist transformation from austenite to martensite. This factor is discussed in more detail in Composition effects on the magnetic permeability of austenitic stainless steels.
http://www.bssa.org.uk/faq.php?id=26
Brian in SLC
I think they are ferromagnetic.
Not 300 series.
This means they are Martensitic or Feritic
Austenitic stainless is non magnetic as well as not being heat treatable.
From another source
Experience with brittle fracture of steel ships during the World War II demonstrated that while many metals have good "room-temperature" characteristics they would not perform adequately at low temperatures. For example Ferritic (405, 409, 430), Martensitic (403, 410, 414, 416) and Duplex stainless steels (329, 2205) tend to become brittle as the temperature is reduced and fracture (sometimes with catastrophic results) can occur without any warning by stretching, bulging as in some plastic failures. Therefore alloys for low-temperature service must retain suitable properties such as yield and tensile strength and of course ductility.
http://www.penflex.com/engineer-bulletins-090217.php
that all took about ten minutes to find.
Looks like someone didn't do their homework.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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just because the #3 Camalot performed well BITD doesn't mean your crampon (or bouldering beanie) won't fail in 2012
it's with great sadness that I admit that I had to retire my BD beanie. The corporate culture didn't back the gear, didn't back the lifestyle, didn't back THE LIFE
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