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WBraun
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
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All mortals are living in a dream, dirhik
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 20, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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kelly. I have no real right to judge the rout one way or annother. Never been there. Some make it sound as though it is still fairly well protected even without the drilled pins. With only that to go on with the story of the seige with the compressor it is very easy to condem the route from my armchair. On the otherhand I have no idea what the rout means to those who actually live in Argentina? If they really felt that it needed to go they could have and should have done something about it. You can not compare putting up new routs in forgin countrys to chopping old routes in other folks back yards.
I feel that this is a terrible precident to set. No one argues that Sadam Hussin was not a bad dictator yet most of the world felt pretty strongly that the USA should not have invaded Iraq to get rid of him.
The idea that just because you have the might gives you the right to go anywhere in the world and chop a route that you do not agree with is quite disturbing INMOP.
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guest
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
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Some good points, tradman, thanks. First, I feel fully confident saying that, indeed, the route takes very good natural pro almost the whole way -- I've only rapped down it, and I was pretty exahausted (climbed up a different way), but I remember being like, "Whoa. Holy sh#t. This is insane!" Had an odd admiration for Maestri's lunatic fringe obsession -- it's hard to imagine unless ya've seen it.
But more to your points -- kinda like two wrongs don't make a right, perhaps? Fair enough. I will say, though, that it's also interesting how we (not just based on your post, but something I've observed a lot over the years) seem to view installing bolts as OK, but removing them as not OK. How does that make sense? Like, I mean, drilling a hole and making a permanent alteration is every bit as much an act of violence (not trying to overdo it; I clip bolts all the time, just saying that it's definitely an invasive act) as removing it, no? Why do we seem to accept placing them, but not removing them when called for? For the record, I've never removed/chopped a bolt, and I've placed two bolts in my life. So I'm really not coming at this particular point from a personal bias standpoint; it's just curious to me. Thanks, Kelly
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jan 20, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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What I think it very pertinent to this discussion is that in 2007 a meeting was held at the Los Glacieres National Park Visitor Center in El Chalten to discuss what should be done with the bolts on the Compressor routes. Not only were forty climbers from nine different countries present at the meeting, but also the chief ranger for the area and the secretary and president of the local Andean climbing club.
30 of the 40 climbers(75%) voted to keep the bolts on the Compressor route.
Here is a link to the details of the 2007 meeting and vote:
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=35788
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Kimbo
Boulder climber
seattle
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Jan 20, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
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bhilden hits it.
Twas an arrogant act that can only be forgiven by the youth of the kids involved.
Now for the rest of you....
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Kimbo
Boulder climber
seattle
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Jan 20, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
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I can't help but think of the effect this might have on the locals' business dependence on gringo thrill-seekers?
Whitey comes rolling into town, thinking he, always "he", knows what's best for the area in question, without bothering to consult the local populace that actually lives there.
Another neo-colonialist adventure, masquerading as an "ethical" maneuver.
I think the locals have had enough of whitey's "ethics".
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jan 20, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
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So cool that they chopped it. And awesome to see all the panty wringing over it too.
To the post upthread with the insinuation they just did a route in better style so felt privileged to chop it, that is complete shallow thinking on your part. These guys are going around doing every route they do in better style. Do you see them out chopping all the routes they climb? No. The compressor route was completely outlandish in it's time then and still is. It was a one of a kind; a no brainer. Nobody liked Maestri doing that. I have never heard a positive remark about Maestris style when he went to war with that rock. It should have been chopped a long time ago.
Thanks Hayden and Jason,
Arne Boveng
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 20, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
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So "whitey" can grid bolt the planet without permision but environmental restoration is colonialism.
R
I
G
H
T
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Drill Baby Drill
Just take another look at the pic a few pages back, do those all have to stay?
R
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A
L
L
Y
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Sometimes it seems to me that the uber-advocates of bolting are as dogmatically fixed as NeoConservative Tea Partiers.
Hey maybe Sarah Palin want'd to summit ST. Now what will she do?
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
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If this route was littered with fixed ropes that had been left up after an ascent that didn't even reach the summit and someone went up and chopped them all, would there be a huge outcry? If not, what makes bolts so much different as to be inviolate?
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schnaxlmeister
Mountain climber
Canmore, Alberta
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Jan 20, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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I guess I am one of the few who disagree with the chopping of Maestris bolts. Although I have deep respect for Jason's and Hayden's accomplishment and I think it is a step forward in style, I do believe that there is a place for Maestri's Komressorroute. A big piece of history (maybe a bad one) indeed, and a testimony of human will power. Who are we to decide what was a good or a bad style those days, which route comes next? I just returned from a road trip to the States- are we now going to chop the bold ladders on Moonlight buttress, the Nose or the Grand Wall in Squamish, just to name a few. Those routes have all been freed long time ago, with new bolts added to climb variations (like on Cerro Torre) and nobody dared to rappel the original line afterwards to chop the bolts.
On Moonlight Buttress I was free climbing while passing a party who was entirely aiding the route with big haulbags and portaledges. The grin on their faces and the stoke in their eyes convinced me once again that a route can be climbed in many different ways, and still be fun and challenging to everyone. Jason and Hayden, as someone who has climbed the Compressor route in the early nineties, I want to tell you that at that time it was one of my deepest experiences I ever had, and with chopping the line you robbed this chance for future potential aspirants.
And to Rolo, all my respect goes out to you, don't take this wrong, it's just a different opinion. The great Silvo Karo (you praise and quote earlier) and partners put up 2 wild lines on the south and east face, both end up at the base of the headwall of the Comressorroute, so both are basically variations of the so much criticized Maestri Route. Furthermore, both used extensive aid climbing with fixed ropes over a long period of time and a much later era. And did you not use Maestris bolts on you way down from you grand traverse of the 3 Torres?
Although Everest got alredy climbed without oxygen in 78, the majority of climbers still use it in order to climb the highest peak in the world and have a life time experience. Although I don't support the style and I would never attempt to climb it that way, I don't think we should shut down the mountain for Oxygen users.
On a different note, thanks to all the climbers who where involved in the rescue/recovery attempt of Carlyle, you guys rock!
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jan 20, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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I think it's bad for Americans to be chopping routes in other countries as if they own the place. I don't think tourists have the right to chop bolts here.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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I think it's bad for Italians to be bolting routes in other countries as if they own the place.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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In a sense, Italians do own Argentina. Half of the country's population are of Italian heritage.
I'm not sure how Argentinians feel about U.S. and Canadian climbers...but most Argentines are descended from colonial-era settlers and of the 19th and 20th century immigrants from Europe, and 86.4% of Argentina’s population self-identify as White-European descent. An estimated 8% of the population is mestizo, and a further 4% of Argentines were of Arab or East Asian heritage. In the last national census, based on self-identification, 600,000 Argentines (1.6%) declared to be Amerindians.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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Not defending the Maestri route in any way, but noting some hyperbole here.
One would be lead to believe by a few postings here that the Maestri route's bolt ladders enabled throngs of unskilled and inexperienced climbers easy passage to the Torre's summit. Which climbers would those be? I seem to recall the 1980's and 1990's, and even some of the more recent, list of successful ascents being a who's-who of modern alpinism. Moreover, in five trips to the area I don't recall coming across guided teams aiming for the Torre much less gumbies thinking they could sneak the Torre by clipping up bolts.
The route's bolt ladders comprised only a portion of 25 pitches of steep, moderately difficult technical terrain that had to be negotiated very quickly and efficiently to have any reasonable chance of success-bolts or not. No apologies for Maestri's travesty but the implication that "non-alpinists" could, or often did, easily ascend this route isn't altogether true.
What's done is done. I sympathize on some level with the leave-it-be sentiment and I'm certainly not a proponent of chopping routes because top climbers found a way to avoid using the fixed gear- but perhaps this route, vilified from the beginning, has been a sacrifice waiting to happen for 40 years. I think it would be helpful also to withhold judgment on Jason and Hayden's motives until we hear them speak, which they undoubtedly will.
FWIW, my only attempt on Cerro Torre went for the Ragni route, because the Compressor's bolt ladders and heavy traffic during the rare weather windows held no interest to me compared to the remote and surreal ice climbing on the wild wilderness of the west face. We had a hell of an adventure but got bouted by winds 70 meters from the summit. It stands right now as the longest journey I will have to make to do but 2 more pitches of climbing.
Carry on-
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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Hey Clint- again, I'm not in any way downplaying Maestri's poor style.
Actually looking at the detailed hand drawn topo Dave Nettle gave me, it shows 9 out of 22 pitches having bolt ladders. The first 9 or so pitches had been climbed in 1968 I believe. In any case my point was that the route has enough real climbing beyond the bolt ladders, plus the approach and the need to go fast due to short windows in weather, that I don't think it is quite accurate to infer it was a route that any weekend warrior or unseasoned alpinist could go 'bag'. I know a few very good climbers who have gotten fairly worked on it and not necessarily because of the weather.
That's all.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:01am PT
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I agree - it looks like there are plenty of challenging pitches (20/27) - not a complete clip-up / via ferrata.
Now there are more like 27/27 challenging pitches....
Probably some people will reach the headwall a bit slower without the bolt ladders, the weather window will have closed or they will realize it will close before they can free/aid the headwall pitches. They may be bummed out, or maybe they will feel it's OK because they didn't want to climb the bolt ladders anyway.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:04am PT
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Does anyone know when Jason and Hayden will be back, and perhaps able to post a first-hand account of what they did - here or elsewhere? (Bearing in mind that it may have commercial value...)
We have Rolando Garibotti's report (the first post), and the post to Colin Haley's FaceBook site. Colin seems to have been an eyewitness, from a distance; Rolo doesn't say whether he was a witness, or if his information is from another source, or even Colin. Did anyone clearly see what Jason and Hayden did, or talk to them later about it? What are the sources?
Hard information is important as a basis for intelligent discussion.
rolo: Here are the facts:
 Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk made a very fast ascent (13 hours from the Col of Patience to the top) of the SE ridge of Cerro Torre on what for sometime we have been calling "fair means" style, which implies not using Maestri's insane bolt ladders. We presume they used some of Maestri's belays but in pitches only clipped 5 bolts, four placed by Ermanno Salvaterra on his 1999 variation and one placed by Chris Geisler on his and Jason's variations last season.
They followed an identical line to the one climbed by Chris and Jason last year, making a pendulum left in Chris's last pitch, to connect a number of discontinuous features over three short pitches to reach the top (5.11+ and A2) .
During the descent they chopped a good portion of the Compressor route, including the entire headwall and one of the pitches below. The Compressor route is no more.
Haley: "BIG NEWS: Although Jorge and I unfortunately fluffed this weather window, today we got to watch history being made through a Canon G12 zoom lens at Norwegos: Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk made the first fair-means ascent of the SE Ridge of Cerro Torre. Although I'm not 100% sure about the details, I think they took about 13 hours to the summit from a bivy at the shoulder, which is amazingly fast considering the terrain. The speed with which they navigated virgin ground on the upper headwall is certainly testament to Hayden's great skills on rock. Bravo! They might be in the mountains several more days (more good weather coming), but I'm sure we'll hear the details soon!"
Once there is full information about what Jason and Hayden actually did, perhaps I'll comment.
On a side note, it might be difficult to fill whatever holes have been left. The headwall is by all accounts a place that's often stormy, wet, and icy. Challenging conditions.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:16am PT
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Who are we to decide what was a good or a bad style those days, which route comes next?
Answer: The two climbers who just free climbed the thing. They didn't ask for my permission, and I hope they would consider our opinions about them none of their business. That's how you have to think if you're forging new worlds.
The parade has already passed by the ones of us who wonder. To those out on the thin end of the wedge, it's not a matter of right or wrong. It's always a matter of: Can I do this. And if I can, I will. No complaining and no explaining. That's for the rest of us - looking at the ass end of the parade, slowly receeding . . .
JL
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jan 21, 2012 - 02:16am PT
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John,
I don't know if it changes your answer, but as a bit of a clarification the guys on Cerro Torre didn't free climb the Compressor Route. Their route still has aid up to A2. They just found a way around using Maestri's bolts. Does that change your response?
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