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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Curious to see how many Republicans will now be hustling their daughters out of SD for abortions. I suspect the number will be quite startling this year alone - if only it were a publically available statistic - but such is the beauty of privacy...
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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werner-
everyone is against abortion.
why are all the people who want to outlaw it so badly also the people who don't want to do anything to address the social realities and educational deficiencies that so frequently preceed it?
if the so-called "pro-life" types took the money and the energy that they have directed for so long at fighting the battle in the courts and the media and instead tried to make a difference in communities and in classrooms and in peoples lives, their efforts to lower the abotrtion rate might actually make a difference. instead, they'd rather dictate their own moral values to all people, regardless of the varying beliefs of the public.
being in favor of abortion rights is not the same as deciding abortion is right, it's about deciding that some personal choices are just that, and it's nobody else's business.
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WBraun
climber
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I don't know Matt .......
My take is if someone wants an abortion I just say what I know from the spiritual perspective and then let them decide for themselves.
I never want to interfere with a persons independent free will with the right to chose for themselves.
I'm not a politician.
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dirtbag
climber
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Here's a hypothetical I heard about for my anti-abortion friends here.
If you were in a burning fertility clinic and you could rescue either a petri dish with a human blastula or a 2-year old child, but not both, which would you rescue?
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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"Overturning Roe will be great for the Calif. economy, our hotels will be full and the physicians busy with cash paying customers. "
Another example of why businessmen make crappy policy wonks ;-)
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10b4me
Ice climber
The Happies
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so I take it that the politicians of South Dakota see nothing wrong with incest.
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dirtbag
climber
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"The two year old. Too obvious. "
Maybe. Anyone else?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Healy wrote: "John, I'll grant you expertise in climbing, but in this discussion you sound like just another voice calling for a "discussion" that at it's heart is simply a dialogue of appeasement with those who's stated intentions are nothing less than to abridge and then revoke my daughter's rights."
Like I said, never argue with someone locked into a perspective, for they wouldn't be so locked unless they felt they were entirely "right." So I won't argue with you, but I will add this.
Everyone out there questioning abortion is not catagorically out to revoke the rights of your daughter, and nothing about this issue is so simple as you believe. You have roped your arguments onto a fixed and proscribed platform that is infinately smaller than the larger issues involved.
Now if you were to ask a few questions (to which you don't have prefabed answers), that would make a difference. And if you have no questions (without those pesky answers in your head) about the entire issue--which involves many mysteries--then your contention to have wrestled with this at depth seems vacuous indeed.
JL
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Hence...why your writings are so well receieved, John. Well said.
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426
Sport climber
The Crystal Fist, LRC, TN
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dirtbag-what's the kid's last name?
i'll ride the fence for now; a blastocyst isn't very obvious, so i need better 'intel'.
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dirtbag
climber
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We don't know the gender yet, but the parents have decided on Jane or John Smith.
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426
Sport climber
The Crystal Fist, LRC, TN
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Hmmm, John/Jane Smith.... sounds kinda foreign...the xenophobia is settin' in.....
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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If the gender is not what the parents "want," might they abort?
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dirtbag
climber
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Sorry, I misread your post 426. We don't know the blastula's name, but the kid is named Pat Smith.
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426
Sport climber
The Crystal Fist, LRC, TN
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I'm suspicious of any Smiths. Grab the blastula for me...
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dirtbag
climber
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The Blastula will be named Smith. If allowed to develop, he/she/it will be little Pat's sibling.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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John,
The questions I posed above are actually not rhetorical - they are fundamental and need to be honestly answered by anyone claiming to be "wrestling" with the issue. That you coyly decide to sidestep them is certainly your perogative but you do seem to like your wrestling in the abstract.
And while you may need to believe that this is all somehow so infinitely labyrinthian and so mysteriously complex that it can't be simply stated, I would disagree. There are many aspects of any philisophical or scientific discussion about life and it's meaning that are inevitably so - but at some point you inescapably arrive at the end of a hard, pragmatic road where less esoteric, real-world conclusions and decisions have to made. It is at that juncture that you either have opinions and have arrived at some basic, operative conclusions for yourself or you simply twist in the wind with no say.
That I happen to be able to clearly state my position on the various aspects of the issue should in no way be mistaken for a "fixed platform". Again, the only thing fixed and inflexible in my position would be that it rests on an absolute defense of the inalienable right of my daughter to freedom and privacy. As for a "proscriptive" platform that, by definition, would be the anti-abortion platform. Those forces are committed to nothing less than a complete ban on abortions and have repeatedly stated they have no interest in compromise on the matter.
Now I will and have happily debated the science, philosophy, and political dimensions of this issue, but I definitely do not do so from the sort of intellectually, logically, and constitutionally baseless position you seem to advocate is necessary for any valid in-depth exploration of the issues involved. I can only assume that your inability or unwillingness to answer even the simplest questions in the matter come from the fact that they do in fact, at some point, require hard concrete answers from each of us.
Those questions were simple and stand on their own whether you choose to answer them or not:
a) Exactly what business or interest is it of yours, or anyone else's, that is involved in a woman deciding to have an abortion?
b) With how open a mind would you approach a discussion on a total ban on climbing in Yosemite with a group dedicated exclusively to achieving that end and will settle for nothing less?
Neither is a trick question...
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426
Sport climber
The Crystal Fist, LRC, TN
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I'm riding the fence again..."quandryfied"...do any of them have a tail?...
Not very nice to load up "Chef Boyardee's Bungee Cord" on me like that.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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About the petri-dish vs the 2 year old toddler scenario, I need a little clarification. What is the gender of the toddler, and have we been able to isolate the 'gay genes' of the petri dish embryos?
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