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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 30, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
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I now think my previous wavering vote was in part based on my own desires. I haven't climbed the route so I retract and go back to undecided.
Is the decision getting any easier?
I do think this is more about making the climb "better" as opposed to "safer". It's safer to skip the 3rd pitch than to do it with a few bolts. Looking at the route in it's entirety if the third pitch is out of character and few do it would the route as a whole be better if there was reasonable but sporty pro? Or is that third pitch a really fun mental test piece that complements the pitches below? Like I said I haven't done it, so I'm back to undecided.
Also, in this case the FA team is willing to modify their route, perhaps to make it more enjoyable for more people. But many years in the future when the FA teams are gone we won't have that choice for many routes, so perhaps that is another "pro" for adding bolts.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 30, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
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This is an excellent thread. Thanks to Rick A for starting it.
I can see great points on both sides.
One thing:
Slippery slope it is! If the rationale is to make the route safer, then why not bolt the last pitches of South Crack. One could also run cables along Snake dike to turn it into a great Via Ferrata for aspiring climbers! There is no end to this.
Regarding Snake Dike: this was, in fact, retrobolted after the first ascent. The FA party used the exact same argument for this as the argument posed in the first post, upthread, about Super Chicken; ie they could see that Snake Dike could be a great, classic Yosemite 5.7, but was too runout to ever be popular with 5.7 leaders. So they went back and added a few bolts.
So Snake Dike is perhaps a strong argument AGAINST the slippery-slope theory.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Sep 30, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
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truly a great thread, but one thing bothers me...the part about the FA owning the climb. a few years ago, tom frost told me(when i asked what he thought about me adding a bolt on an A3 section of the North American wall to make it go free at 13a), that nobody owns the rock...and that just rings so true that i took it as gospel.
Of my first ascents with bolts in TM, i consider myself as a steward of these routes, trying to replace the old 1/4" bolts, and rarely, as i have said, retrobolting routes mostly to make them runout friendly.
"NOBODY OWNS THE ROCK" - TOM FROST
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Sep 30, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
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BITD, when Ron Kauk and tom herbert switched over to rap bolting, i thought it was all over, and that rap bolters would cover medlicott with a grid of bolts...but that never happened. it's still tough to put up hard routes and send them. so, Kauk ended up rap bolting two whole routes on medlicott, and
tommy did not rap bolt on medlicott at all, so my fears of a similiar slippery slope, of rap bolters going wild everywhere, were unfounded.
point being, a few bolts added to super chicken isn't going to put us over any edge. it's just not a big deal. Nothing bad is going to come out of it. it's totally ok. shipoopoi
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 30, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
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"NOBODY OWNS THE ROCK" - TOM FROST
Now who is this Mr Nobody ..... ?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Sep 30, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
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Yeah, nobody owns the rock of course. No question! But out of courtesy and trying to do things within a friendly and smart community, appealing to the group for feedback shows loads of class----stuff that Accomazzo has tons of, and many others do too; you too certainly, Steve. Our art, sport and game takes place within a community of sorts, and lots of the crappy-dumb ideas don't get put into motion because of feedback, thank god. By seeking responses, we also build a better group, and avoid kooky dramas. We are more likely to hear keen ideas and important info also.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 30, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
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Maybe this climb is the testpiece needed by people in the process of getting their head together? From the posts it sounds ideally designed for just that. I have backed off climbs for that reason. Probably the most important skill a climber needs to acquire.
Even more important than learning how to climb.
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Sep 30, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
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In 1989 or 1990, Dan Michael and Craig Reason spent most of the summer
working on a line on Medlicott. Eventually they seemed to give up on it,
pulled their bolts and left.
Did their line become an established climb, like maybe Raging Waters?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Sep 30, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
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scuffy b - I bet shipoopoi can answer that one
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Sep 30, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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that's behind my timing, Mike.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Sep 30, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
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scruffy b, dan and craig did not pull their bolts, but they threatened to, and apparently conned the young tommy herbert to buy the route and pay for the bolts, or they would pull them out. when tommy gave up on it, he treid to sell the route to me, and i said bullcrap, i aint buying nothing. but tommy got so tweaked on it that if I didn't pay up, then he was going to pull out the bolts. finally, i relented, paid tommy, and after much work, i sent raging waters, called it 13d(i'm sure it's at least 14a).
and i was always pissed at dan michaels and craig reason for selling thier route. i mean, if you are going to come into tuolumne, and not plan on returning(i mean, i've never seen them again), you can damn well leave your rap placed bolts in situ and not to be so cheap as to go charging people for the rights to it. i mean, if you can't do it, just leave it as an open project.
incidentally, when bachar was to have said that this line would never go, michaels and reason were calling the route Never Say Never. so tommy jumps on it with the working title peristoika(sp?) for the the new russian way of acceptance(as in rap bolting in trad territory). then i called it raging waters for the fun water park in SLC i went to the day before the snowbird comp that year, and to represent some of the turmoil that this routes history repesents. poopoi
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Sep 30, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
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Steve-
Louie Anderson here. I've done many of your lines in the Meadows and failed on a handful of the others. All of them (success or failure) were great experiences in a beautiful location. I know this is a bit of a thread drift, but I've often wondered what were the favorites of your routes there, and why?
If this isn't the appropriate place to answer, maybe start a new thread.
Hoping to read your thoughts about the routes...and thank you for all of the fine routes that you (and others) have brought to us - much appreciated!
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 30, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
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apparently conned the young Tommy Herbert to buy the route and pay for the bolts, or they would pull them out. when Tommy gave up on it, he tired to sell the route to me,
LOL hilarious .......
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Sep 30, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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TFPU
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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RickA-
If you do decide to bolt, you gotta use these-
You could probably buy them off shipoopi ;-)
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Thrutchmo
Mountain climber
South lake Tahoe, nv
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I am not a big fan of any X routes; make it an R. Just because a bolt is there you do not have to clip it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Just because a bolt is there you do not have to clip it.
Sure indicator of 'missing the whole point'.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I disagree.
In fact I've been thinking that just because a piece of rock has been soloed shouldn't take away the opportunity to put a roped route up it.
Was thinking that last summer when I climbed Magical Mystery Tour and stared out over all that beautiful slab to the right of it.
To say that soloing a line locks it away forever from any less death-defying ascent strikes me as "misappropriation of resources." I'm starting to like that phrase. Who gave anyone that right?
Soloing is extreme; does it have to be selfish too? Werner's Wiggle grew bolts after its FA, and I sure enjoyed less perilous access to the real estate of that resource.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Kudo's Shipoopi for adding to the history of the meadows by telling the story of "Raging Waters' here
Stuff like that really should get copied over to a "first ascenders's story registry" that people can mess up with thread tangents
Peace
karl
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