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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2011 - 10:01am PT
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Thread needs a photo:
Superpin about 1982, photo by Pete Steres.
I gladly clipped the bolt.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 20, 2011 - 10:11am PT
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ah. if we could only measure the waves...
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 20, 2011 - 11:32am PT
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Barber has his reasons,
and none of the minor climbers arguing about it are going to
understand, but his ability and achievements warrant our respect
rather than our condemnation.
I don't think ethics has anything to do with weather you are a "major" climbing or "minor" climber. I feel as a "minor" climber I understand why he wanted the bolt chopped but he is going to make a mess of an area that I live in. I could care less about climbing Superpin but if things deteriorate due to this action that was done 35 years after the fact and access is restricted or denied to everyone that will affect "minor" and "major" climbers.
Also I don't think Patrick Oliver or Henry Barber are climbing at the status of "Major" coimber today so by your own reasoning maybe we should not pay attention to you. Probably just David Llama he is a "major" climber right.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 20, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
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If you are going to put your mark on the rock with a drill then you have an obligation to put up a decent route that will be worth repeating.
---------
The challenge with the above statement is that it denies a first ascent party the freedom to do things their own way in favor of the "right" way. Problem is that "right" to you means something different than it does to me, and Pat and Rick and (fill in the blank).
I think what's at issue here is the idea that adventure climbing "has" right elements that are widely considered "wrong" to a sport climbing mentality, or to those who feel committing climbs are exclusionary and that responsible leaders are obliged to provide "total access" routes once the bolt kit is deployed.
Nobody has come right out and called people chickenshits, but the concept is worth a quick review.
If you took the fear out of the equation, would people be complaining about run outs? Of course they wouldn't. Part of the age-old "trad" ethos was dealing with fear. This is the tradition, and without some tradition, climbing become merely exercise. The fear tradition is truly preserved on a comparatively small percentage of current-day routes, and it seems the mounting trend is leaning toward "fixing" said routes to make them more better, "right," sane, and all that.
What's more, in a strange and screwy reversal, those wanting to preserve the fear quotient in those few routes are called arrogant, selfish and so forth.
What's been lost in some cases is the notion of "earning" a celebrated route. More and more, people expect something for free, to stand on the summit having risked nothing at all, not realizing they might be denying themselves the "bubbles in the champagne," as Ricky mentioned.
JL
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Sep 20, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
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^^^^+++++
Or as we used to say bitd "if it was easy, your mother'd be here!"
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 20, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
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DMT,
keep up the commentary.
Ron Anderson,
About One Rule:
Rules have ONE problem for rule makers. They need followers.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 20, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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Jabro,
for your koan:
Yes, with the judge down trad climbers could use anything.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 20, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
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The Needles has a long tradition of bold routes and that is one of the things that makes it a great area. I would think that local climbers would feel proud of this tradition and see the need to preserve it, but I am willing to defer to their collective judgment.
The local climbers seem to be able to tolerate someone placing eight bolts in the Bell-Ringer, either on or right next to a 40 year-old Kamps Route that used no bolts.
The local climbers seem to be able to tolerate someone placing a line of bolts on Sandberg Peak, either on or right next to a 40 year old Kamps-Powell route that used no bolts.
The local climbers seem to be able to tolerate someone placing a bolt to protect the 5.0 second pitch of the 40 year-old Storjohann Route on the Outer Outlet.
All moderate routes, repeated many times before being drilled.
The debate about Superpin, where there are some unique issues involved because of the amount of time that elapsed, takes place in the context of these other actions. I wonder whether any other climbing area in the country would have tolerated analogous degradation. If anything argues against local autonomy, it would be the current Needles scene, where it appears from the outside that "local autonomy" means something like "we're cool with anything; it's open season here." This makes Henry's actions, which I don't agree with, considerably less radical than they might have been in some mainstream area where discernable standards exist.
Still and all, I agree with Rick about the necessity of deferring to local collective judgement. I do wish there was a more evidence that the locals, whatever their individual qualities, are collectively able to exercise any kind of oversight in their backyard.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
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Some misunderstandings. Nowhere did I say we should ignore
the lesser or "minor" voices. Yes I too am a minor voice comparatively
today. What I meant is that, with all these comments that seem
to tell us what Henry thinks and why he did certain things, and
what a creep he must be, well, we shouldn't presume to know
what his thoughts are and definitely should not,
by impulse, attribute to Henry some kind of low-level, negative
thought process that might in fact be closer to a projection or
something the person would think who offers up such criticism.
Likewise don't let your insecurity get the best of you and presume
that I think less of someone who climbs at a lower grade. Hardly.
I wouldn't want to hang out with my daughter (though in time
she'll move easily past me, if she wants to).
I was saying, rather, that all such discussions
are bound to be of little use. Of course any climber has a voice
and can speak and be heard. Some of the very best voices here
are the most moderate of climbers. I wasn't condescending, just saying
none of this discussion really sheds much light on Henry's
actual motivations and thoughts and reasons, especially from
those who are far less experienced. I.e. we get into
very speculative ground when we turn the discussion personal
against Henry. I understand he has, with his presumed action,
offended some. I appreciate that people who are locals to the
Needles care about what might be the result. Personally I
agree with Largo and Rich, and whomever said you would think
Needles climbers would want to preserve those historical landmark
standards. We get completely off track when we start comparing
generations, attacking Henry's person, and so forth. No
comparison can really be made between generations, and we're
still not even sure Henry did the chop. Sounds as though he
or a partner did, but I worry when I read so much uncertainty
on the subject. It would be good
to hear from Henry, but I'm not sure he gets on Supertopo.
I could go into much greater detail about Athlete's Feat, but
to keep it short(er), the changes that took place with the holds
on that route were very minor, perhaps increasing the grade by
a letter, from 5.10d or 5.11a to perhaps 5.11b. I have done the
route about sixty times, and when those holds broke a small bit,
the move was exactly the same, but one had to grip that upper
hold (the big one above the lip) a litter more precisely and lean
to the right, against it. It was much more significant that he
had no chalk and pioneered the pitch on-sight. To do it, as
John Gill says, within the consciousness of those days, surely
made it a ferocious short pitch. But what Royal stayed basically
the same when the holds broke a small bit. You won't think the route
is tantamount to a boulder problem if you were to do it without the
bolt, in Spiders, without chalk... necessarily on-sight, or possibly
hit the big spike of rock directly below. That's a dangerous
ground fall. Whether to leave the route a "trade route," i.e. and
give everyone protection who hasn't what is needed to do such a
bold lead, a bolt to clip overhead, is questionable. The
only reason I didn't chop the bolt (again) is that someone would
have forced their will on us and replaced it. I did return several
times and led past the bolt without using it. That was a tough thing
to do, really, almost tougher than the original ascent, because
the temptation is so great to clip in there. There are people who
will know what goes on with that pitch, who will understand what
Royal achieved, but plenty of others of today's climbers won't be
up on their history and won't care to know, as long as there is a
climb in front of them to do, with a nice bolt to clip. One can
only speculate that in the future Robbins will be entirely forgotten,
when generations far beyond the present go to do the ready climbs
at Castle Rock.... There might be a time when the mentality of the
climbing world might be to return that climb to its original state.
Who knows?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 20, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
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I am against retro bolting one hundred percent, but that is not why I am so fired up about this.
The
only reason I didn't chop the bolt (again) is that someone would
have forced their will on us and replaced it.
Pat in your own words and actions you did the same thing as many of us that are against this behavior do in the Needles and a lot of other places. YOU DON'T START a BOLTING WAR. I wouldn't be surprised if the bolt has already grown back. What would happen if we start chopping. My guess is no more climbing at all is a possiblity if things get out of hand. If he was going to chop the bolt he should have done it long ago. I put up with this crap just so that things don't actually spiral out of control and I think that is precisely what is planned.
Furthermore, I do believe that I have read that this behavior has gone on elsewhere and is tollerated not because they agree with the action but not to cause further damage to the rock and let things spiral out of control to the point where land managers get involved. I think Yosemite and Red Rocks are two good examples of places where routes have been retro bolted. They have way bigger and more active climbing communities. so I don't think that all locals feel this is OK. We have a small population with a huge amount of rock and some of these things don't get noticed for years. Furthermore the only guidebook with any decent history has been out of print for over 20 years. I saw one for $177 yesterday on ebay. I would say many people that have started climbing within the last 10 years very often wouldn't know who Robbins, Barber, or all the rest were.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 20, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
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DMT, it is now commonplace in our political life to turn nuanced arguments into sound-bite half-truths. It is no surprise to see that happen in other areas of life, at least partially because it has been such a successful ploy in the political arena for forcing agendas that cannot stand up to the light of reason. And things being as they are, it may well work for you too.
If I had even the slightest intention of uttering your reworded sound bite, that's what I would have done. Since that isn't what I said, it isn't what I meant either. And I'm going to resist replacing your misstatement with an analogously brief better rendition (I have one in mind), because that too will end up missing some of the point, and sound-bite wars are the antithesis of anything that interests me here and elsewhere.
"It seems to me arguing against local autonomy, or the one bolter, one chopper dynamic, is arguing FOR land manager intervention. I would rather see bolts wars and endless whining than see every public land climbing area actively administered by federal and state land managers."
First of all, "local autonomy" has nothing in common with "one bolter, one chopper." But more importantly, I believe in endless whining. I believe that endless whining, which is to say the continual rethinking of things people take for granted, is how the human race manages to make some progress. Nothing I have said has ever in any way implied that we should somehow put an end to endless whining, that is more your position than mine, since you have chosen to describe the process in a snide an deprecatory tone.
I can't for the life of me see what a willingness to debate (for the most part respectfully) has to do with the intervention of federal and state land managers.
Open question to trad purists - would you turn to The Man to get your way? It seems to me the hearts and minds battle was lost long ago. Some of the very people who argue for original sin route preservation have made livings off the younger climbing set that has no use for oldster rules and traditions. Ironic, don't you think?
I don't consider myself any kind of purist, but I'll respond anyway. The answer is no. I believe in setting out cogent positions, to the best of my ability. That's it. Trying to get outside agencies to enforce your particular view of reality is obnoxious, reprehensible, counter-productive, and in the end, almost guaranteed to be self-defeating.
As for losing the hearts and minds battle long ago, if that is really true, then the current generation of youngsters are far more old-farty than their elders, which would be ironic indeed.
As for making a living off the younger climbing set, I plead innocent, unless by coincidence I happen to have taught some of them some mathematics. If that is the case, I will no doubt have done far more damage than any internet exposition of bolting opinions is ever likely to accomplish.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Sep 20, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
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The funny thing is, if the bolt had been chopped within a year or two of it being placed, many would laud the action as noble and a great defense of tradition and committment in climbing.
Yet the same identical action 35 years later is derided as petty and the action of someone seeking attention and relevance.
The real question is, what is the proper understanding of the action, and does the lapsed time really change the action? How is it we sometimes justify chopping bolts, yet other times we condemn it? The same can be said for placing bolts?!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 20, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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Thirty five years later.
Well, plenty of stuff i used to solo has since sprouted bolts. Used to wonder what i'd do once i retired.
Guess I'll buy a crowbar and an RV.
I'm imagining roving armies of Good Sam Clubbers, following the good weather from climbing site to climbing site, with occasional runs to the border for budget pharmaceuticals and dentures, gathering round the campfire to share stories of their de-bolting plans.
Funny thing about that bolt, is I first heard about it via typical oral legend. The story I heard repeatedly, from various folks, was that it had been an emergency bolt after his attempt got into trouble and he couldn't downclimb. The story of the folks climbing adjacent routes so they could string a tight line for him to lean against, thus freeing his hands for drilling, was always told as something like a despo rescue maneuver. I have no idea if that story was true. It didn't make a lot of sense. But of course, I had a hard time imagining a telling that did.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
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Ron Anderson,
we concur some. A worthy piece gets respect even in the Needles.
What is so impressive and commanding respect about 5.11 climbers running out 5.7 or 5.8 on a new route and locking up the real estate to their style? The locals have seen a lot of this and some from me. I tell 'em add bolt to your wants. I am done with this (climb). Only so many climbs are roadside.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
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Largo, @ Rich. not advocateing that every time the bolt kit comes out it needs to be a spurt climb. I just really do not like the idea of someone putting one or two rusty bolts on an x rated climb that never gets done again. Perhaps it grows a rusty bail quick link at that one bolt but other than being a testament/ trophy for the FA dude it is a total waste of what could be a good route.
We have a bizzare rule that whomever puts up a climb dictates how that climb will be done for at least the FA partys lifetime and often longer. To me that is a huge responsibility. I take it very seriously. When I put up a new rout according to our stupid rules I then own that route for eternity or at least my lifetime. ( I kind of like this stupid rule BTW as long as it's my route) I prefer the ground up thing but I also like to put up climbs that I want to repeat. If it' is too sketchy for me to repeat I will fix it so that I can have fun on the damn thing. Heck one of my best routes, Celibacy I get several requests per year to add 2 bolts to this climb. It will not happen. The climb is pretty darn perfect the way it is and gets climbed regularly by myself and many others yet it is still too spicy for some. If Celibacy had gone unrepeted for a decade I would have no problem adding the bolts and would feel selfish if I refused.
I do not get the mentality of the folks who brag that they do not care anything about the folks who come along after them and that they just climb for themselfs. The problem is when you only climb for yourself in a system that gives you ownership of any piece of rock that you get the FA on you can't help but be a bit of a prick. So yes. If it is free and clean solo away to your hearts content but if you break out the hammer and the drill please create something that is usefull.
BTW INMOP if Henry had chopped that bolt 30 yrs ago all would have been fine. 30 years later it is not so fine... YMMV
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:29pm PT
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Infinite whining . . . a solid concept.
I believe each generation has the obligation to make the sport over in its owe image. That's what we tried to do, and we wouldn't have been deterred or told otherwise. We take for granite an upward progression. And in the vast majority of situations, climbers ARE better than in years past. Vastly. We see the same in all sports. Baseball players used to be fat. Now they all look like Atlas. And so on.
Then it comes to this run-out thing and it is vexing. As said, you expect the kids to make over the game in their own image, but that means doing NEW things their own way, not making over the old stuff, be it thirty four minutes or thirty four years ago. That's a non-starter and total bullsh#t. Period.
In main stream sports, a common-sense ethic shuns cheating or dumbing down the historical record. When Babe Ruth's home run mark was broken by modern players mainlining rocket fuel, there were congressional inquiries. It shall never come to that with rock climbing, but it seems this sensitivity to playing a "fair game" is sometimes missing owing to some (VERY few) people's refusal to be accountable, especially to themselves.
"Sour grapes" is mainly a matter or bitter old farts feeling overshadowed by modern climbers who have greatly outpaced the past. I see none of this here. Most of us catch fire just thinking about the spectacular stuff done on the cliffside these days. But when we see, or perceive that in some cases, the game is being compromised or the inherent challenges made cheap, it's only natural that people sound off - or whine, as it were. The affair at the Needles is just a specific incident of this general concern. Small, granted, but worth whining about to some of us.
JL
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flyingkiwi1
Trad climber
Seattle WA
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
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Infinite whining . . . a solid concept.
Infinite whining = Infinite Bliss?
Full disclosure - I thoroughly enjoyed my Infinite Bliss experience.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
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Not only should we allow the current and future generations to make over the sport in their own way, but we should also preserve the old routes so that they can understand where it came from, and hence have respect and admiration for those that came before them.
When old climbs are "equiped" like a gym route, they become just another 5.8, or 5.9 or 5.10. The current and future generations may have fun ascending the g-rated route, but they can't have the same experience of adventure. However, if the route is left as is, and the leader sacks up to tackle the R or X route, he will experience what his elders did, and he'll have a whole level of appreciation for those that went before him.
Climbing is, or can be, so much more than movement over stone, there is the mental aspect of figuring out the moves (provided they aren't all slathered with chalk) and there is putting asside your fear and committing to a move or moves where falling isn't an option.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 20, 2011 - 07:16pm PT
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When i started in 74, i couldnt get enough of the 50/60s era history, as those were the guys that had put up a lot of the routes we were doing.
All this talk of not comparing generations, value of traditions, protection of resource, value of adventure or boldness, has got me thinking.
What will the future generation value about their hero, other than the 5.15 gymnastic value, which is significant?
"Man, he rapped in there on one cord, only previewed it twice, then he put those bolts in on rap old skool BY HAND! Now this punk raps in because he can't make the side pull and the reach and puts in a new bolt in the middle of that 12 foot runout, with his gun! What a pussy."
"Yeah man, no respect for tradition. Major fail sauce.."
Not all climbs are for everyone, and that's the way it should be.
Why is this bolt on this 5.7 so important again?
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SuperTopo on the Web
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the crux is a hard boulder problem (compared to the rest of the route) close to the ground, which soon gives way to a crack system that accepts perfect pro the whole way up, and
Let us know!