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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 28, 2011 - 08:11pm PT
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Go on?
You lost me there, Doc...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 28, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
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Go on
Rant on..
Nice edit. You call my post a rant?? Of all people...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 28, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
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Skis against the Atom, by Knut Haukelid, is a first hand account of the Norwegian resistance effort to prevent Germany from using Norways extensive hydro power plants to produce heavy water for their atomic bomb program.
Those people were Heroes.
Off topic I know, but only sort of.
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shady
Trad climber
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Jul 28, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
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Mighty Hiker..
This is going to hurt, but be brave. It's for a good cause.
My grandfather had a fireplace and hearth that had living lichen on it, it was beautiful.
He would nourish it by spraying beer on it a few times a year. He enjoyed darker brews, but this might finally be a good use for Bud-lite.
Thank you for your restoration efforts.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 28, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
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Cool story...thanks
The bit about sinking the ferry is incomplete. As I recall from the book, the village was on one side of the Fiord and the place where many villagers worked was on the other, so the ferry carried many people to and from work each day. Haukelid, when he planted the bomb on board, knew he could not warn the villagers because if they did not show up to ride to work the Germans would know something was up.
He knowingly sent a boatload of his fellow countrymen to their death in order to defeat the German effort to get out their heavy water.
Hard choices.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 29, 2011 - 12:29am PT
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Very interesting analysis, Gas. Probably the best I've heard yet.
I'll post my thoughts on QITNL's thread.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 29, 2011 - 01:19am PT
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Riley, I get what you are saying, but at what point does justifying killing dozens of innocent people become psychosis?
Psychotics can be really high functioning in many areas. You have to be more than stupid to butcher so many people
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jul 29, 2011 - 03:17am PT
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He is insane in the fundamentalist sense.
What exactly is "the fundamentalist sense" Riley? "Fundamentalist" has become Supertopo's favorite snarl word. But it's debatable if the word has significant meaning used by itself.
Fundamentalism relates to a specific system of beliefs that one can fundamentally adhere to. Certainly there are atheist fundamentalists...if one is unwavering in his or her belief that there is no god...don't they fit the category of atheist fundamentalist?
Same old fundamentalist half truths and jibberish we get from the Taliban, Evangelicals, Nationalist Jews or even the Mormons
These groups are poles apart on many issues. Are you sure you want to unify them in one grouping?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 29, 2011 - 03:27am PT
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The names of the 41 dead released so far by Norwegian police.
Tamta Lipartelliani (23)
Kevin Daae Berland (15)
Silje Stamneshagen (18)
Hanne Kristine Fridtun (19)
Kjersti Berg Sand (26)
Håkon Ødegaard (17)
Sondre Furseth Dale (17)
Henrik André Pedersen (27)
Eivind Hovden (15)
Rolf Christopher Johansen Perreau (25)
Sverre Flåte Bjørkavåg (28)
Eva Kathinka Lütken (14)
Ismail Haji Ahmed (19)
Maria Maagerø Johannesen (17)
Modupe Ellen Awoyemi (15)
Lene Maria Bergum (19)
Guro Vartdal Håvoll (18)
Marianne Sandvik (16)
Andreas Dalby Grønnesby (17)
Sondre Kjøren (17)
Bendik Rosnæs Ellingsen (18)
Gizam Dogan (17)
Snorre Haller (20)
Johannes Buø (14)
Sharidyn Svebakk-Bøhn (14)
Birgitte Smetbak (15)
Margrethe Bøyum Kløven (15)
Syvert Knudsen (17)
Bano Rashid (18)
Even Flugstad Malmedal (18)
Synne Røyneland (18)
Simon Sæbø (18)
Diderik Aamodt Olsen (19)
Gunnar Linaker (23)
Kai Hauge (32)
Hanne Annette Balch Fjalestad (43)
Trond Berntsen (51)
Anne Lise Holter (51)
Tove Åshill Knutsen (56)
Hanne Marie Orvik Endresen (61)
Kevin Daae Berland
Silje Stamneshagen
Gizem Dogan
Photos and short biographies at http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4186173.ece
One was from Georgia, and one from New Zealand. At least five have names that aren't traditionally Norwegian.
As for the murderer's "manifesto". Well, all such killers seem to have them. They're superficially plausible, as are all conspiracy theories. That is, there's a lot of incontrovertible facts and analysis. A history professor I once had, known as an arch-conservative, had a favourite trick, which was to assign readings from Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, and similar writings. His point being that much of what was in such writings had some truth, sometimes disturbingly so. You can't say that any of these people - Hitler, Marx, the unabomber, the Oklahoma City murderers, and on and on - were completely wrong. Life is nowhere near that simple.
They're wrong, and evil, in the self-serving conclusions they come to, and the actions that they take based on those conclusions.
As for the complex interrelationship between Islam and the West, going back to the 7th century, many of you would benefit from reading Norman Davis' "Europe: A History". Neither the West nor Islam is anything like a monolith, and the intertwined civilizations have a long history together. Whatever the beliefs of some, and present challenges, it seems likely that the Norwegians will continue to view world affairs in an informed and nuanced manner, bearing in mind their nation's values and goals. The Vikings appear in Islamic sources from the 10th century, after all.
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reddirt
climber
PNW
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Jul 29, 2011 - 04:01am PT
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a little fundamentalist
isn't that a bit oxymoronic...
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reddirt
climber
PNW
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Jul 29, 2011 - 04:22am PT
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Unfortunately I have an exceptionally keen fundie radar & Anders is no fundamentalist...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 29, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
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LG: I'll let you know if I come across information about the dead in English. The Guardian had at least a partial presentation.
I haven't heard anything further regarding a national service, but believe it's likely there'll be one in the next few days.
Fundamentalism, multiculturalism, assimilation, etc. There's not much doubt that Norway will discuss those things in the next while. This thread reminds me, though, how profoundly different the various nations and cultures are in some ways. Canada and the US, despite many superficial similarities. More so either Canada or the US, and Norway. The melting pot really isn't an option, given the homogeneity and uniqueness of Norwegian culture, and that immigrants are less than 10% of the population. (Significantly greater in both Canada and the US.) In the end, I suspect that Norway will continue to go its own way, true to its own values. You can argue that they're wealthy and somewhat insulated, and so have choices others don't. Or you can just say they're trying their own way, which is different, and may work for them.
Norwegians are if nothing else very determined, once they've made up their minds, and there is a strong national ethos. They'll do what they think best.
As for professional ice hockey. Well, I've never had a television. But from what I've seen of hockey (and television), it's entirely compromised by commercial 'values', promotes a culture and values (violence, money...) that are repugnant, and distorts Canadian culture. It's an ugly business, even if at times it can be entertaining. Perhaps it's consistent with my partly-Norwegian heritage that I am repelled by it, notwithstanding that the easy way would be to go along with the crowd. Not at all fundamentalist - just determined in my views.
Also, there's no doubt that hockey causes rioting, and that it's great fun baiting those of its supporters that are blind to its excesses and stupidity.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 29, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
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The final death toll is now set at 77, and all victims have been identified and families notified. Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) has been reading out all the names of those who have been identified each night after the 6:00 PM news. The complete list, with home town and age, is on the Norwegian police website - https://www.politi.no/Kampanje_70.xhtml
It was a selfish relief that I don't recognize any of the names, although it's likely that cousins and friends knew some of the dead, or their families.
A useful English language site with information about Norway, the attacks, and related matters:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/
Including an article as to why foreigners don't "get" Norway:
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/28/foreigners-just-dont-get-norway/
It may not be the most profound analysis, but is well worth reading. And it mirrors many things already said here.
I still haven't heard anything about a state memorial, or when the "22/7 Commission" will be required to report by. I expect the latter to be very thorough, very public, and quite untainted by political bias.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 30, 2011 - 02:57am PT
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Friday was St. Olav's Day - he is the patron saint of Norway. (He wasn't very saintly, but then..) Flags throughout Norway were flown at half mast, in honour of the dead.
The 'most read' article on the Aftenposten website as of earlier today was one that was highly critical of Fox News' twisted coverage of the events and their cause. There has been a quite negative reaction - the thing which surprises me being that many (if any) Norwegians watch Fox News (presumably on the internet), or care about it.
Two psychiatrists have been appointed to examine the accused, to determine whether he is sane and fit to stand trial. One is considered the most experienced criminal psychiatrist in Norway. They must deliver their report by November 1st.
Far upthread someone posted photos, allegedly of the sort of prison in which the accused would be kept. The prison is the Halden Fengsel, which is a fairly new medium to low security prison serving Østfold. Not a place for violent criminals - perhaps the US media was lazy, or had an agenda, in suggesting otherwise.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 31, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
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The coverage in the news media is now more about details, and individual stories. The first of the dead to be buried was on Friday - Bano Rashid, a Kurdish young woman (18) originally from Iraq.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/29/norway-terror-attacks-victim-funeral?INTCMP=SRCH
It seems unlikely that the murderer will ever be freed, or if he was, that he would survive for long. It appears that he may also have been planning to bomb the palace in Oslo, and the headquarters of the Labour Party, but was prevented from doing so, possibly by the logistics. The police are also looking for two Swedish right-wing extremists with whom he was in contact, and who may have worked for him on the 'farm' where he prepared. They are also pursuing other of his contacts.
Former Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland's thoughts on what happened, and the aftermath for Norway: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/29/gro-expects-long-mourning-process/ She just missed being murdered on Utøya, having left the island about an hour before the killer arrived. She is an extremely popular senior stateswoman.
There was a mini-scandal in Norway last year, when it was discovered that the US embassy had been engaging in surveillance of Norwegians, outside the immediate area of its embassy. The public and government were outraged. However, the prosecutor recently decided not to press charges. It seems likely that there were some confidential diplomatic discussions between the governments with regard to what is and isn't acceptable.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/07/28/norway-drops-us-surveillance-case/
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Book+condolence+grieving+Norwegians+signed+Vancouver+consulate+Wednesday/5166932/story.html?cid=megadrop_story
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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LG, the estimate is that there were 700 people on Utøya when the murderer arrived. He came by what seems to have been a foot ferry - it's not a big island. He must have had a big bag with his weapons and ammunition, which would have been a bit odd, but perhaps his uniform deterred anyone from asking what he was doing.
Of the 700 or so, 69 were killed. The overall total of those who were treated in hospital for injuries was 96, but 10 - 20% of them must have been related to the downtown bomb. So the number physically injured at Utøya would have been 70 to 80.
The first person accounts of survivors (mostly in Norwegian) are not for the faint of heart.
I believe that the murders will cause Norway and its people a period of sorrow and self-examination, in terms of their country, its values, and its place in the world. Ultimately, though, I believe that what happened will lead them to reaffirm who and what they are, perhaps with some modifications. They will also learn from what happened in the US both before and after 11/9, and the way in which those events were twisted for political gain. It seems unlikely that Norway will react in a similar frightened, violent way, or that it can be manipulated into overreacting. It's very different culture and society.
The events have led to a significant jump in support for the Labour Party and Prime Minister Stoltenberg, and drop in support for the right-wing Progress Party which the killer belonged to. The opposite of the desired effect.
Whether "oil corrupts" is a thesis worth exploring is another matter. It has to some extent in Canada, where oil and gas definitely talk and politicians listen, first in Alberta and now nationally. I suspect less so in Norway, given very different national dynamics. As a result of oil and gas it became a much wealthier country, but they've consciously and openly worked to temper the effects.
The killer still claims that there are two other cells, and that he had accomplices. He says he will disclose the names if the government, the leaders of the armed forces, and the king all resign.
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Outpouring+sympathy+Norway+Labour+after+massacre/5186206/story.html
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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i am watching thenorwegion parliment procedings on cspan. they all look and sund like anders.
they have really focused on how they will react from this stressing free speech, love, and maintaining their norwegien integrety. i am imprssed.
they read the names of the dead and their ages. it is so sad to hear about so many young. the anders look alike played violin. my thoughts go out to folks over there.
peace
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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A memorial was held in the Storting (parliament) today, attended by both King Harald and Crown Prince Håkon, and many from the families of the victims. The names of the 77 dead were read.
The Storting has decided that there will be a national day of mourning on August 21st, including a memorial concert. It will be at the largest suitable venue in the country.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/01/day-of-mourning-to-be-held-21-august/
It appears that the murderer was delayed on his way into and out of Oslo on July 22nd, due to a car accident. He had originally intended to set his bomb several hours earlier, but by mid afternoon many people had left work on a summer Friday. He would then have arrived at Utøya earlier, in time for the large rally attended by Gro Harlem Brundtland. The bomb also had reduced effect in that the vehicle was parked above an underground tunnel, which absorbed much of the blast.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/01/breivik-delayed-new-details-reveal/
And a journalist's perspective - a writer from The Guardian, sent to try to talk with families and friends at Bardu, which is north of Trondheim. It has 4,000 inhabitants - two died at Utøya, and two were injured.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/01/talk-survivors-norway-attacks
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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terroristic violence is a legitimate solution is one that he could have easily picked up on the left.
HAHAHHAHAHa. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Where do you find these comedic gems?
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