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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I have a very special place in my heart for many of my GU FA's but a few of the harder TD climbs I did last summer are just as special. All the thought that went into them and the attention to detail to get the climb just right feels like creating a masterpiece to me. I did this sport climb (Mad Woman 11a) top down. Its 30m and it took me 5 days of solo TR to finally feel that everything was perfect enough to fire in the last 3 bolts and redpoint. I feel that it is one of the best climbs I have ever put up despite the fact that I rap bolted it. My French friend Slyvain does not speak much english but he onsite flashed it and called it 7a I think it is a bit easier than that maybe 11a?
This climb Mad Man10d/11a? is just climbers left of Mad Woman. It is a mix of bolts and gear. It had some cracks and the line was obvious so I talked Ed into belaying me for a GU ascent. This was not an easy sell as ED feels pretty strongly that top down results in a better route. Anyways I told him it would be quick and easy and only take about an hour;) The lead ended up takeing about 3 hours with all the cleaning and pondering. I blew a beak and took a pretty decent ride giveing Ed a few thrills:) Ed declared me a Mad Man hence the name of the climb. We bounced arround a bit trying to free it but neither of us quite got it. We came back the next weekend and I replaced a bad pin with a bolt on lead and then got the redpoint.Two climbing sessions for the GU pitch. 5 or 6 for the TD pitch. Both are stellar climbs. Mad Man is special to me because I did it GU but Mad Woman is a masterpiece INMOP because of all the work I put into it, all the time I spent contemplating before committing to the drill. I think Mad Woman is a bit more special. A year ago I Never would have been able to say that I felt more for a TD climb than a GU climb.....
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Developing, with an aesthetic and thoughtfully considered vision, in a manner consistent with local and regional values, is a community service. Bolting squeeze jobs, with the goal of maximizing the number of routes in a given space, certainly is not.
So true, which is why I stated "as often as not".
I can certainly see the value in both and it is ture as Tradman nicely points out how a well reasearched and carefuly thought out TD route can be as good or even better than if done GU.
I think we're all kinda argueing more or less around the same point as everyone here posting seems to have a well rounded and level head. However, it's the potential for abuse by those without thoughtful vision, concideration of local values and an "agenda" based on quantity and self importance when developing that puts the rap bolting issue into the foreground. Ground Up certainly holds less potential for abuse.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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This thread is way too reasonable!
How do we get more folks to see that excessive td gridding is not a service to the community?
This thread needs more pics too. 👌
💃💃💃💃💃💃
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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This thread needs chiseling. lol
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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This is a climb at Courtwright Reservour, The Gold Standard 5.12+.
Kris, Jan and I did it back in the mid 90's ....
We didn't even consider rap bolting it because it wasn't our style. And the top is way way upthere.
After trying to hook it with normal hooks and failing, Kris came up with the idea of the "thin hook" its not really a hook but rather a squaire edge. If you found the right "dime" edge and you put your weight on it sowley it would hold!
We took many sliders before we got the bolts in and we had a climb that was a huge challenge for all of us - an adventure for sure.
I don't know if it has ever had a second ascent.
I do get upset when I show up at a local climbing place (im thinking texas canyon) and find a brand new 5.10 located right between my favorate two 5.10s that were very close together to begin with, now there are 3 climbs, with the same characteristics within 30 feet.
A public service was performed by shelfless climbers who promptly REMOVED the offending climb.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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A public service was performed by shelfless climbers who promptly REMOVED the offending climb.
So a public service is removing something that offends you personally?
Sweet! I'll blow up the local church.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Patrick... in short. YES
But seriously... I can't fathom just why somebody would step up to a chunk of stone. Look 6 feet right at climb A, and 6 feet left to climb B and think "I have found my purpose in life - this unique line must GO"
Lame.... IMHO.
It's not a climb you did, right?
but heck lets not derail this climbing topic
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Somebody did that for the same reason you put up a climb, then looked 12' left and decided to put in another.
The fact that 'somebody' else decided to chop the line the middle because it was in between their two lines is compeltely arbitrary. If there were no lines, and the middle one went in first, is it then ok to chop the one to either side?
This isn't hijacking the thread at all. Bolting on lead does require skill and balls, but you are still drilling holes and pounding in metal. The impact on the rock is the same.
'You are not a special flower' - Fight Club
... the line you bolted isn't either.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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patrick.... First there was a first.
second there was a second
third there was a turd.... right in the middle.
I understand your troll... 100%
But is there room for esthetics????
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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if those bolts are within an arms reach of each of either line. pull and patch, why not?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Munge... you "get it"
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Squeeze jobs suck. if a bolt is close enough to an existing climb to tempt the leader of the existing climb to clip the new bolt that is very poor location for a climb. There is however no majick pass that makes a GU bolt less offensive than a TD bolt if either is poorly placed. A hack job is a hack job regardless of TD or GU. the most common mess that the GU climber creates is the dead end into a bolt ladder to nowhere.. the climbing gets too hard and the great aspirations for a free climb degenerate into an AO bolt ladder. that is ok if the climb eventually goes somwhere interesting but i have seen a few of these that simply petered out and gave up.
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Some times you just gotta' get lost!
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ghostfromthepast
Social climber
oakhurst ca
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Apr 24, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
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your post explains why I consider the dispute over whether I freed Hall of Mirrors utterly absurd. Thanks,Chris Cantwell
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Apr 24, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
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This post and all the talk of hooks reminds me of the time Pratt told me about a bat hook route he had done on the Mount Davidson cross. This is just a ho hum concrete cross on a hilltop in San Francisco — nothing but 90˚ angles, smooth surface, probably 100 feet high.
The idea of climbing it had immense appeal to a young freak in the late sixties, so I set about creating a couple of bat hooks for the job. As I recall, I started with a Chouinard product — I forget what it was called. A cliffhanger? Something like that…
My metallurgical skills were even more meager than my good sense. I hammered and ground until I had a right angle piece that would fit in a small bolt hole. Looked good to me. And I talked Jeff, a climbing friend of mine, into joining me for the excursion.
My memory of the ‘route’ is that it had four empty bolt holes between bolts. And standing in the top loop of my homespun slings was required to reach each hole. I was always impressed at the notion of drilling a hole from such a stance. But most disconcerting was realizing, at forty feet off the deck, that my bat hooks were bending as I ascended. I had not successfully tempered the steel.
My memory isn’t entirely clear if we finished then or not (more than forty years ago). We definitely got to the top of the arm. I seem to have some recollection of trying it in the dark, also. I do recall that the local constabulary arrived and demanded that we come down, but no arrests or tickets were issued, and that was in broad daylight.
That was my last excursion with hooks. Pratt listened to the story in typical, understated amusement.
All respect to those who place bolts from questionable stances!
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Jun 16, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
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I just bolted a fun 10a ground up and put all 5 bolts in from stances. So rewarding.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Jun 21, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
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2 more routes!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 21, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
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the most common mess that the GU climber creates is the dead end into a bolt ladder to nowhere..
Got some examples?
When I arrived in Ca in the early 1980's the SoCal areas like Josh, Idyllwild, The Needles, etc., were meccas of ground up climbing, and bolting from stances on lead. I cannot think of one such "mess" as you describe in any of these areas. There are a couple of bolt ladders in Josh but they were not the result of an attempted free climb.
Bolting on lead does require skill and balls, but you are still drilling holes and pounding in metal. The impact on the rock is the same.
Bolting on lead means less impact both in terms of the typical # of bolts on a route and the # of routes which get done.
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