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monolith
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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Oh Dingus, you will find many studies pointing in the other direction, some examining our teeth. It's opinion vs opinion about how you want to weigh the evidence.
And don't forget the greens and veggies as well. A number of athletes, including this guy, eat this way as well.
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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May 12, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
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How about those frugivores!
I couldnt just do fruits..
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 12, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
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I read the book several years ago. It is worth reading even if you do not plan to go vegan. But you might change your mind after reading it.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 08:56pm PT
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Vegetarian is easy to understand.
Eat everything except meat fish and eggs.
So simple .....
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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May 13, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
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Blood pressure is normal for the first time in years!
thanks to my diet..
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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May 13, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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Absolutely agree with you, Monolith.
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monolith
climber
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May 14, 2011 - 11:59am PT
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DMT, I'm an atheist. If you want to make diet a religion fine. I'm not trying to convert you. People are curious and I'm giving my answers from my experience. You can give your answers from your experience.
If you want to equate seeking health with seeking salvation fine. That's your problem and it's quite lame.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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May 14, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
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Way, way up thread I mentioned that I am watching my rigidity about ways of eating. What is it about food that inspires dogma? "People" do seem to attach to "my" way of eating as the only right way and in that way do resemble the religious. Paleo, low-carb, no-fat, low-glycemic, vegetarian, vegan, raw... they all have internet forums devoted to staying rigidly on their plan.
A separate but related thought: do climbers tend toward disordered eating because our sport is so weight-oriented? We are kind of like dancers in that way, or gymnasts. And those sports are rife with eating disorders.
If we are changing the way we eat in pursuit of health and not zero-fat percentages, what is healthy about rigidly following a way of eating? In China, (I may have this totally wrong, I just read the book once) they don't eat meat because of finances. They have a primarily vegetable and grain based diet that uses animal protein rarely but not never, just rarely enough to influence the statistics.
And speaking of statistics, The China Diet is rigorous in it's science. Someone upthread scoffed at this work and said it is disregarded in the main profession. Why this happens is addressed in the book.
This is an interesting perspective on eating as well and doesn't seem rigid to me:
http://drfuhrman.com/library/foodpyramid.aspx
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monolith
climber
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May 14, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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That's what's so interesting about China, Daphne. There are vast rural poor areas and there are some affluent areas that can afford higher meat. The actual china part of the China Study is just one chapter in the book. There are other studies in the book, all interlock, showing the need to reduce animal protein.
And right on regarding Furhman. He advocates eating meat rarely, but has some other animal products as a small percentage of the diet. If this helps people, great.
BTW, I'm a high carb from plants proponent, but I also get about 7% fat and 7% protein by calorie and get 3500 cals/day. No one eats zero fat, or at least lives beyond a few years eating like that.
Also, check out The Fruitarian. Fruit, it's not just for hippies any more.
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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what are opinions in taco land of clif bars?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I am really enjoying this discussion.
Les, you wrote:
Re: meat. Our ancestors, and hunter-gatherer societies, ate meat as a regular part of their diet, and the incidence of "diseases of western civilization" was far, far lower in their populations.
This is a mis-impression. Our ancestors did not live long enough to get diseases of western civilization. 100 years ago, Americans lived to be about 40 years old, and that was a significant improvement over the previous 100 years.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Monolith said:
39% of the US has low or deficient B12 status. Of course most of them eat meat. Meat has B12, but it also causes absorption problems.
Care to cite a source? That seems rather high. I would have thought much more towards the 5% range.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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This is a mis-impression. Our ancestors did not live long enough to get diseases of western civilization. 100 years ago, Americans lived to be about 40 years old, and that was a significant improvement over the previous 100 years.
That's a partial misrepresentation as well based on average life spans.
When you factor out childhood mortality (that has been significantly impacted) and that back then the entire adult male population went to war rather frequently, (not a few percent as now), a normal adult life span is still around "three score and ten" same as the old days.
The days of our years are threescore years and ten;
and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years,
yet is their strength labor and sorrow;
for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
If I become a "Breathitarian" does that mean breathing will kill me instead of my food?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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TGT, I don't know what bizzare source you are citing. I'll cite the National Center for Health Statistics:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf
1900
Pneumonia (all forms) and influenza------------------107-109,33 40,362 Tuberculosis (all forms) ----------------------------------------13-22 Diarrhea, enteritis, and ulceration of the intestines------119,120 28,491 Diseases of the heart --------------------------------------------90-95 Intracranial lesions of vascular origin ---------------------------83 Nephritis (all forms) -----------------------------------------130-132 All accidents --------------------------------------------------169-195 Cancer and other malignant tumors ------------------
Senility -------------------------------------------------------------- Diphtheria
Table 8. Deaths and death rates for the 10 leading causes of death in specified age groups, by race and sex: United States, 1998:
All races /3 , both sexes, all ages
Diseases of heart (390-398,402,404-429) ..............
Malignant neoplasms, including neoplasms of lymphatic and hematopoietic tissues (140-208)..
Cerebrovascular diseases (430-438) ......................
Chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases and allied conditions (490-496) .. Accidents and adverse effects (E800-E949) ............
Motor vehicle accidents (E810-E825) ....................
All other accidents and adverse effects (E800-E807,E826-E949) ........... Pneumonia and influenza (480-487) ........................
Diabetes mellitus (250) ............................................. Suicide (E950-E959) ............................................... Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis (580-589)
Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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We've made a big dent in reducing the kinds of plagues that wiped out whole communities as well, mostly due to indoor plumbing and sewage treatment, not medicine or diet.
Still, a normal adult life span has been 70-80 years ever since someone picked up a clay tablet and started scratching marks in it.
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monolith
climber
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Ken, the B12 deficiency info comes from the Framingham study. Here's a summary:
http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/ABSTRACTS/Americans_May_Be_Low_in_B12.shtml
Simple cheap supplementation gets your B12 levels up considerably. The US deficiency level is 148, while other countries like Japan have higher levels like 400. So if we went by Japan standards, more Americans would be deficient. And as the summary states, some people have B12 deficiency symptoms even though they are above the US deficiency level. That's why it's important to get the uMMA/homocysteine tests which is a better indicator of a B12 problem.
Or you could just forget the tests and just supplement, meat eaters and vegans alike.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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I once found myself in a stupidly bad situation where eating the marrow from a cracked shin bone made a difference.
I didn't do too much thinking about it.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Monolith, that is wrong information.
I was involved as a researcher in the Framingham study, tangentially, when I was an editor at the New England Journal of Medicine. I write books on statistics, As your citation notes, it refers to "low normal", something which does not exist in statistics, but which is a creation of people who are trying to create artificial diseases that do not actually exist. "Low normal" is another way of saying "normal".
Like if you got a "low A" on a test. what was your score? An "A".
or a "low Pass" on a smog test. what was the score? "pass"
The "summary" makes bizzare conclusions about people having vague B12 symptoms (but which could actually be caused by literally thousands of OTHER causes BESIDES B12 deficiencies!)
This is an attempt to create something that does not exist.
No.
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