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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 18, 2013 - 01:55am PT
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the fact that no new Richters, Horowitz's or Gould's seem to have appeared in the last few decades (at least to my knowledge) must be indicative of something, but I'm not sure what it is... The dominance of Lang Lang's, on the other hand, is not entirely surprising
I think it indicates a triumph of "contemporary" (in the musical criticism sense) taste over Romantic taste in the conservatories. Horowitz and, to a certain extent, Richter (and certianly Arthur Rubinstein) were throwbacks to Romanticism in an age of modernism.
I think someone like Maurizio Pollini has all the technical equipment of any of the great pianists of the past, including Horowitz, and pianists of my generation idolize him as a technical superman. I personally find his recordings quite good, particularly his late Beethoven. His recording of the fugue of the Hammerklavier is the best I've heard.
Overall, though, he doesn't dazzle the way the Romantic virtuousi did. As an example, his recordings of the Brahms piano concerti are technically fabulous, but they just don't deliver the emotional punch of a Rubinstein or Rudolph Serkin.
Ultimately, though, it simply demonstrates why we call the opposite of classical music popular music.
John
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 18, 2013 - 09:49am PT
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the fact that no new Richters, Horowitz's or Gould's seem to have appeared in the last few decades (at least to my knowledge) must be indicative of something, but I'm not sure what it is...
Get thee to see Yefim Bronfman. And Yuja Wang is destined for greatness. It'll be interesting to see her mature as a musician.
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selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
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Apr 18, 2013 - 11:23am PT
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a typical "modern version":
[Click to View YouTube Video]
"old version" played by the author himself:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
which one is more "romantic"? I find it hard to believe that the change in the taste is all there is to it. In terms of "athletic performance" (i.e. notes per second) no one I know today comes even remotely close to Rachmaninov, Hoffman, Backhaus or Richter. And the reason why we hear fewer wrong notes today is mostly because fewer risks are taken. No one plays the Liszt sonata at this tempo anymore!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Although Horowitz, Rachmaninov or Hoffman are viewed as romantics, to me their playing had the lucidity and the momentum that lack in today's overly sentimental way of playing romantic music (such as the above recording by Kissin)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 18, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
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And the reason why we hear fewer wrong notes today is mostly because fewer risks are taken. No one plays the Liszt sonata at this tempo anymore!
I agree with the thrust of what you say, particularly the lack of risk in modern recordings and concerts. The pursuit of "perfection," usually interpreted as no technical mistakes, has diminished the art of the piano. I don't think that's all, though.
Ironically, my best illustration isn't a romantic piece at all. If you compare the Schnabel recordings of the Hammerklavier with that of Pollini, for example, the two take exactly the same tempi for the fugue (as does Eschenbach in his sensational DGG recording of about 1970). Kempff, in contrast, is a bit slower (quarter = ca. 128 rather than the Beethoven-indicated 144 at which the others play). Kempff and Pollini play equally clearly, but the faster pace of Pollini doesn't seem that fast because it's so perfect.
As an unraveling of the fugue, I have never heard another recording that matches Pollini's. Nonetheless, the emotional effect of Schnabel's reading, particularly when the main subject returns in the chaos of the inverted subject, is overwhelmingly climactic, and the piece seems startling, even to 21st century ears. Rachmaninoff also aimed every piece for what he called "the point." Pollini's playing is so uniformly unerring that it's hard to feel a point.
My personal favorite piece for solo piano, the Beethoven Op. 111 Sonata, is another illustration of what Schnabel had that modern pianists don't. The crescendo and diminuendo in the double trill in the last movement is much greater in Schnabel than in the modern readings, and it creates an effect of such profound tranquility as to seem to suspend time itself. I try to emulate Schnabel when I play (I've played that Sonata for 42 years, and still don't tire of it), but seldom succeed. Schnabel seemed to be able to do that sort of thing naturally.
I think the training of modern pianists makes them lost in romantic, or really any greatly expressive, literature. It's rather like a leader who's only used bolt protection on sport climbs taking on his or her first difficult lead without bolt protection. Placing removable gear is a different skill from doing hard moves, and even though their technical ability to move upward may be superb, the comfort level of needing different protection hampers the fluidity of movement.
Of course, playing is art, not science (despite my collection of piano technique books that try to analyze the science of playing), so even if my analysis were close, I know it's not universally true. In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy hearing others play, playing myself, and reading what my fellow ST posters think. Thanks.
John
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selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
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Apr 18, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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now I need to find Pollini's recording of Hammerklavier and compare it with Schanel. I always felt that Pollini's versions of op. 109 and 110 are quite possibly the greatest I've heard..
in the meantime, another clip...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
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Apr 19, 2013 - 12:14am PT
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ok, I've found Pollini's recording... It's absolutely superb.
On the topic of Hammerklavier, here's another clip :)
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nice Bach
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 23, 2013 - 12:27am PT
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Since it's Wagner's birthday, give or take, here's one Nazi conducting another:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 23, 2013 - 12:30am PT
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Ron, I'll see your Steve Howe and raise you Ana Vidovic:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 23, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
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Thanks for the Richter clip, Selfish Man. The recapitulation had the same excitement that Schnabel's recording had, and the tempi Richter used in the introduction between the adagio and the fugue were just the way I like them (Pollini is neither mysterious enough in the largo sections nor excited enough in the other sections for my taste), although I still think no one plays the fugue itself better.
More importantly, it might finally eradicate "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" theme from my mind. Yesterday, I needed to rescue my 101-year-old mother from her automatic sprinkler system, which wouldn't turn off electronically, and I've had the "Sorcerer's Apprentice" theme on my mind since.
I even played my favorite Beethoven Sonata, the Op. 111, last night on the piano, in the hope that the Arietta would replace Sorcerer. No luck. Hopefully, my mind will be churning the Hammerklavier fugue theme for awhile now. If not, I may need to resort to the nuclear weapon of mind-numbing tunes -- "It's a Small World."
John
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 30, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
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If not, I may need to resort to the nuclear weapon of mind-numbing tunes -- "It's a Small World."
Don't do it, John! Try this:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 31, 2013 - 11:28am PT
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JE on Pollini: His recording of the fugue of the Hammerklavier is the best I've heard.
Have you heard Rudolf Serkin play this? I'll leave discussion of relative technical capabilities to others, but to me the way Serkin plays it is how I imagine Beethoven hearing it in his mind as he created it. Technique is fine, but without the fire and passion, without the willingness to take chances and be sometimes wrong, technique is all that's left. And technique, by itself, conveys little of what is in the music.
JE again: As an example, his recordings of the Brahms piano concerti are technically fabulous, but they just don't deliver the emotional punch of a Rubinstein or Rudolph Serkin.
Or Gilels. His recordings of both of the Brahms concerti were so burned into my brain that I could call them up any time. Just imagine what cruising through immaculate sparkling powder between monster granite walls on Baffin Island was like with that ringing in my head.
(I also once saved Gilels' bacon in an emergency, but that's a different story.)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 31, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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(I also once saved Gilel's bacon in an emergency, but that's a different story.)
I'd love to hear that story, Ghost! I bought the Gilels/Szell recording of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto in 1971, and it remains my favorite. The sophistication and clarity of his playing -- particularly of the cadenza in the first movement, but really all the way through -- was just a delight. It certainly must have amazed people to hear him say "Wait till you hear Richter!"
I also have to confess that Rudolph Serkin is really the reason I have never been able to get Beethoven out of my daily playing. In 1970, I heard his recording of the Moonlight, Pathetique and Appassionata. I had never heard the Appassionata before, and it completely mesmerized me. I doubt that a day has gone by since when I haven't played at least some Beethoven when I have access to a piano (i.e., I'm not traveling or in the mountains).
Incidentally, a year or two after that, Peter Serkin made a recording of the Hammerklavier that was sensational. Teach your children well . . .
John
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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(I also once saved Gilels' bacon in an emergency, but that's a different story.)
I'd love to hear that story, Ghost!
It was sometime in the late 1970s I think. Emil Gilels was playing in Vancouver, where I lived, and I had tickets. This guy was, in my mind, the best piano player in the galaxy, so I was pretty stoked. But the recital kind of sucked.
Okay, so Gilels playing badly was still better than most of what passed for classical pianism, but still...
On the other hand, it was only because of me that he was playing at all that night.
I'd made an appointment to let my dentist torture me that morning, but not long after I sat down in the waiting room Jim (the dentist) came out and said "I've got a favor to ask."
Wtf? "What? You want me to be the guinea pig for some new procedure?"
"No, but I wonder if you'd mind waiting half an hour or so while I deal with an emergency."
Of course I said that was fine. Anyone who has had a dental emergency would willingly wait half a day if that would help someone in a similar situation. And a couple of minutes later two people walked in. One sort of in charge, the other obviously in serious hell and barely functioning as a human. And the sufferer looked vaguely familiar...
It took me a minute to correlate the red hair with the B&W photos I'd seen, but then light bulb switched on and I knew who I'd given up my half hour for.
No wonder he wasn't in top form that night.
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