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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 12, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
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Gene...
It's analogous to a sonic boom, when something travels fater than the speed of sound, as materials also have veolocities for sound, even air, which changes with altitude and temperature, as that effects its density.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
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Any exposure to non-natural radiation (above and beyond natural background radiation) that you might ingest, breath, or drink, is dangerous. There is no safe level. Once inside your body alpha, beta, and gamma radiation from radioactive decay occurs. You have to rid your body of it the best you can, ie KI.
Oh, bruther...
1. Radiation is radiation, natural or not. I get less dose per year working at a nuke than most who live in New England, or people who fly 2-3 times per week, and they get it from 'natural' sources. Heck, even most isotopes of iodine are, in fact, radioactive. When I used to 'body count' in to plants, I would eat a bunch of bananas, so I'd get a potassium spike, joking that I wanted to leave with more radiation that I came with, when I body counted out.
2. KI doesn't 'rid' your body of radiation... It fills your throid, which can only hold so much, with KI, so there is no room for more energetic radioisotopes of iodine, allowing your body to rid it through normal means, in the event of an uptake. And KI only protects people from radioiodine, that's it. Not cesium, or any other fission product.
3. Not all radioisotopes emit alpha, beta, and gamma... In fact, rarely will any emmit all three of those. In fact, radioiodine (that KI protects against) is primarily a beta emitter, and that is what causes the damage. Its halflife is just over 8 days, which is why KI works.
You clearly do not know what you are talking about.
Typical Nuke employee responses --
My dad has worked in the Nuclear industry for the last 30 years. Hanford and now Savanaah River.
I have gone through many tours over the years. Taken the physics classes. Taken workshops from General Atomic etc.
In a perfect safe world (safe from seismic activity, or terrorism events, which of course doesn't exist), nuclear fission is a wonderful source of energy. Actually, Integral Fast Reactor (IFR) technology would be the better way to go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_Fast_Reactor ) with passive safety and a technology that can resuse all stored spent fuel forms and then ends with a much safer form of radiative waste, with a much shorter half-life and far easier and safer storage. Hey but what do I know? Apparently I don't know what I'm talking about. Only you do. A nuclear industry insider.
The fact is, this entire event is a really, really bad PR for fission nuclear power. You can't get much worse PR. This is exactly why we shouldn't go this way. There are things you can not control, such as Mother Nature. You wouldn't be biased would you?
All emergency back-up systems for energy to continue to be supplied to the cooling process failed, and Japan is a very technologically savvy country.
How many have died of exposure to Solar, Wind, Geothermal, etc., clean renewable energy resources? We have the technology and the know-how but certain industries have us by the throat and they do not want to let go. Their gravy train is just far too valuable, to hell with the environment, and they don't want to see their profits to plummet.
The fact is you cannot do anything regarding natural radiation, except limit your exposure to these sources as much as possible, ie distance from the source is the safest form of protection and the best behavior to practice. With non-natural radiation sources (ie man induced releases) that are airborne contamination, ground/soil contamination, or water contamination, that have the potential to be accidentally inhaled, eaten, or accidentally drank, then yes you have to do what you have to do, ie KI. Yes, I know how KI works, the CDC website discusses it very well. Yes, I know it fills the thyroid and limits the uptake within this organ only. Yes, I know it only works on radioactive iodine. But it is one of the things we can do.
Never said all radioactive isotopes emitted alpha, beta, and gamma. Depends on the radioactive isotope.
The point is, when any are inside your body it can do significant damage. There is no safe level for radioactive isotopes inside the body emitting radiation through alpha, beta, and gamma decay. All the experts outside of the nuclear industry say so. Outside the body and at a distance, then much less that it can do.
It is better to be prepared before an accident, than after the fact. All families should be prepared and have KI as part of there home emergency kits. Do you disagree?
Yes, learn to love radiation. It's only natural for goodness sakes! (sarcasm)
I don't sleep at night with radioactive sources under my pillow at night for good reason. I handle them with care, only limited exposure, and at a distance. I don't handle them directly, but only wrapped in plastic. I always wash my hands thoroughly afterwards. My sources for experiments and demostration purposes, are always locked away and stored safely away from all students and staff when not in use.
A great resource, the GA poster:
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
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Mar 12, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
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Jan,
I am so sorry! My heart goes out to all of you.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 12, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
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1. Radiation is radiation, natural or not. I get less dose per year working at a nuke than most who live in New England, or people who fly 2-3 times per week, and they get it from 'natural' sources. Heck, even most isotopes of iodine are, in fact, radioactive, as well as most isotopes of potassium... When I used to 'body count' in to plants, I would eat a bunch of bananas, so I'd get a potassium spike, joking that I wanted to leave with more radiation that I came with, when I body counted out.
2. KI doesn't 'rid' your body of radiation... It fills your throid, which can only hold so much, with KI, so there is no room for more energetic radioisotopes of iodine (I.e., radioiodine), allowing your body to rid it through normal means, in the event of an uptake. And KI only protects people from radioiodine, that's it. Not cesium, or any other fission product.
3. Not all radioisotopes emit alpha, beta, and gamma... In fact, rarely will any emmit all three of those. In fact, radioiodine (that KI protects against) is primarily a beta emitter, and that is what causes the damage. Its halflife is just over 8 days, which is why KI works.
You know, at the taco we have a traditional method of communicating this much more succinctly.
It starts with, "Yer gonna,..."
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 12, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
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"Typical nuke employee response"? That's it? Obviously you don't disagree with anything I said, so my not say, thanx for the info?
My reponse was unemotional facts, NOT speculation and fear. It is unbiased, as it is in regards to the facts.
And, yes I know of breeder reactors, it is nothing new. Personally, I think we should reprocess fuel, like they do elsewhere instead of WASTING so much still in the fuel. But that's another story, that has to do with politics and fear, not $$$.
I also agree on renewable sources of fuel, but the fact is, people want cheap reliable electricity... In order for us to "switch" to greener stuff, people's electricty bills would tripple. Unfortunately, over 50% of our electricity comes from coal. Over 50%, because it's cheap. Just removing cheap coal would make people's bills go up enormously. How many people to you think are willing to pay 3X as much for their electricity?
You know, in France, about 80% of their electricity comes from nuclear.
And, before you want to say nuclear is not 'natural':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor
Oh...Never said all radioactive isotopes emitted alpha, beta, and gamma. Depends on the radioactive isotope. It's called radioisotope.
Or...All emergency back-up systems for energy to continue to be supplied to the cooling process failed, and Japan is a very technologically savvy country. I believe the unit involved is American designed and made (GE / Bechtel or EBASCO)... Back in the late 60's, and came on line in the early 70's.
It's apparent that you spent some time researching topics in the last hour enough to compose a reply, hoping to look like you already knew all this stuff, but it is still apparent that you do not really know what you are talking about.
But, I digress, as all of that is another topic altogether.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
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It's apparent that you spent some time researching topics in the last hour enough to compose a reply, hoping to look like you already knew all this stuff, but it is still apparent that you do not really know what you are talking about.
Yea, I just learned all this stuff just now. (Eyes rolling.)
I teach the topic. We hit this topic both in physics and earth science.
Yes, I know about the natural fission reaction that has been discovered to have occured in the lithosphere.
And yes, we have an enormous Fussion Nuclear Reactor safely located 93 million miles away, (as it should be), that is our primary source of energy in our corner of the universe -- The Sun.
Now we can safely harness the light EM energy that it provides. Enough EM energy from the Sun hits the Earth to supply all our enrgy needs with excess, for the next 5 billion years. We just have to step-up and do it.
Even General Atomic (GA) is more honest than you.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 12, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
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I'm not gonna argue with you, even your the image in your last reply confirms what I have said regarding dose, and sources of radiation... Which is relevant to this thread, regarding what's happeing at Fuku.
How 'bout starting another thread if you wish to discuss our energy woes, and big corporate greed conspiring and making it worse.
Let's keep this one on topic... The events in Japan, and the facts about it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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I am disappointed, even dismayed, that you are a science teacher, given that I am mainly a self educated high-school drop out... Yet the disparity between our understanding of science is pretty apparent.
Yes, it certainly is very apparent.
Your understanding and attitude is directly nuclear industry biased. Sad.
The conversation is totally relevant to what is happening in Japan.
People are waking up (again) to the fact that nuclear fission nuclear power plants aren't what they are supposed to be and what they promised -- safe.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 12, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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rrrAdam,
don't waste a joule on him.
TFPU.
.....
EDIT to ADD
I see the "science teacher" just posted.
I haven't followed the whole thread regarding the nuclear stuff but rrrADAM, I'd bet my bottom dollar this "science teacher" doesn't know any more about nuclear dynamics than he knows about electrical stuff.
Which I got to discover last summer. What a waste of time he is. What a waste of time to respond to his posts.
All he is is cut n paste, there's no common sense underlying it to pull it all together. He shouldn't be an educator, let alone a science teacher, when he's so full of unchecked bullsh#t. IMO.
radam, post on.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Mar 12, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
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Lets get back to the more interesting 'yer gonna die' stuff.
ie the fuel bundles
http://www.friendsofbruce.ca/candubundle.htm
Once a bundle is "spent" (after 12-18 months in the reactor), it is highly
radioactive. The 1978 "Ontario Royal Commission on Electric Power
Planning" (aka: "Porter Commission") stated, "The extreme lethality of a
freshly removed spent fuel bundle is such that a (unprotected) person
standing within a metre of it would die within an hour."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 12, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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Klimmer, let's try keep this Japan-centic. Lets not divert to the politics of nuke energy.
Please.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
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The two are now one.
This is about Japan and the help they need, and this is also about a Nuclear Industry dissaster caused from a massive 8.9 magnitude earthquake. And it will have fallout effects . . .
http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20110312D12JFF03.htm
Sunday, March 13, 2011
Meltdown Caused Nuke Plant Explosion: Safety Body
TOKYO (Nikkei)--The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said Saturday afternoon the explosion at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core.
The same day, Tokyo Electric Power Co. (9501), which runs the plant, began to flood the damaged reactor with seawater to cool it down, resorting to measures that could rust the reactor and force the utility to scrap it.
Cesium and iodine, by-products of nuclear fission, were detected around the plant, which would make the explosion the worst accident in the roughly 50-year history of Japanese nuclear power generation.
An explosion was heard near the plant's No. 1 reactor about 3:30 p.m. and plumes of white smoke went up 10 minutes later. The ceiling of the building housing the reactor collapsed, according to information obtained by Fukushima prefectural authorities.
At a news conference Saturday night, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano discounted the possibility of a significant leak of radioactive material from the accident. "The walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode," Edano said.
The amount of radiation detected inside the plant after 4:00 p.m. slightly exceeded the dose people can safely receive in a year, according to information obtained by the Fukushima prefectural government.
The No. 1 reactor shut down automatically soon after a massive earthquake hit the area Friday, but its emergency core cooling system failed to cool the reactor's core sufficiently.
NISA is affiliated with the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry.
(The Nikkei March 13 edition)
HFCS,
The more you post the more you prove you are clue-less.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 12, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
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I hope Jan's incorrect on the cultural assessment. there could be other technical factors at work.
Most all US equipment is set up for our voltage standards. We are not talking about something you just plug in the wall here. I would imagine that pumps of this size are medium voltage. In the US that would be 4160V
Most portable gen sets, even the big ones top out at 480V 60hz. On top of that the Japanese system is the same as the European system so the operating voltages for the motors may be something different like say 5600V 50hz. Not something you can plug and play. You also don't just tie two wires together at those voltages. Splicing medium voltage lines is a time consuming meticulous procedure and if it has to be done in a "Hot" zone the exposure of each person doing the splicing will have to be very limited. Lots of "jumpers" would be required. (a person that works in a hot area for a very limited time on a one time basis)
The US military does have some incredible resources for moving this kind of equipment around though. When Katrina hit our son was on a C-5 crew on the way back from Iraq to Maron Spain. They were diverted mid flight to Ramstien Germany and picked up three of the largest dewatering pumps ever made and flew non stop with three in flight refuelings to New Orleans.
Everybody got the Humanitarian Achievement medal.
If there's something anywhere in the world that would help, they can get it there.
Travis AFB, where the Pacific heavy lift capability is based, went on full alert within an hour or so of the earthquake.
Edit,
Kilmer you are in close competition with Crawly for ST's village idiot.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 12, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
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Anyone who wants to use scare tactics with regards to Nukes needs to start researching all of the devastating petrochemical accidents. There is no comparison to the loss of life and destruction. However, because each of fills our tank with it, we somehow feel better about it....
http://www.csb.gov/investigations/investigations.aspx?Type=2&F_All=y
As someone said earlier, the EDG's (emergency disel generators for those may be somewhere between 3-5 MW in size. That means huge. People need to remember that this quake was of such magnitide that it may have exceeded the Design Basis Event for the reactors.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Mar 12, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
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I'm astounded by how you, you all know who you are, can hijack a thread that is based in sympathy, and turn it into some pointless energy fight.
Grow up and show a little humanity, you f*#king as#@&%es.
:)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 12, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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Is wasting a joule on someone like casting pearls before swine?
Also, isn't it spelt "nucular"?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 12, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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Sorry, this is a very sad thing, and yet it illustrates that all of us who may live near natural disaster prone areas rally should think about it and plan for it more than we all do.
Thoughts and Prayers for the people of Japan.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 12, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
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The nuke plants do grab the headlines, but meanwhile there's a town of 17,000 where 10,000 have disappeared, four missing trains and a missing cruse ship.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 12, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
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it illustrates that all of us who may live near natural disaster prone areas rally should think about it
I was in the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake. My partner and I just started our workout in a lifting gym - Gold's Gym in Mountain View - when it struck a little after 5.00p. Watching some of the i-reporter video from Japan reminded me of this once-in-a-lifetime experience - for example how you could hardly stand. (Forever etched in my mind is the image of my workout partner Dan croutching on all fours out in the parking lot with me wondering if it was ever going to stop.) But some of these i-reporter videos also reminded me of a lesson I later required myself to remember regarding getting caught up in any serious earthquake - which I've reflected on many times over the years, decades now - so if I were ever in one that serious again maybe I'd do better. "Knowing better is doing better." Right? Now that I think about it, that lesson kinda has some carry over to rockclimbing, too. Anyways, that lesson was/is not to blindly rush out of the building like I did that evening - even if there is a mad rush of bodybuilders behind you. Instead, be mindful. Even more mindful, that is, and take pause at the wall before exiting - Heads Up! - to make sure nothings falling off the high building as you exit. Exit only after you look up to make sure it is clear. Now you might think this is obvious or instinctive but I was disappointed in myself later - when monday morning quarterbacking the whole entire experience 100 times - that I was so set on exiting amidst all the loud bruhaha I didn't look up the wall before exiting the double door emergency exit to make sure bricks or glass or signage whatever from upper stories weren't falling down to take my head off. Luckily nothing did though, that day I just happened to be running with fate, not against her, thank goodness.
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EDIT to ADD
Brandon,
Relax. Loosen up. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Bottom line: In any public discourse like this sooner or later what comes around is a wingnut packing bullsh#t. Is it better NOT to call the bullshit when you see it or read it? No. So there it is - the reason for impugning bullshit if not the bullshitter when you see it. Impugning it is justifiable, it is warranted. Sure it is a dirty job. But somebody has to do it. Else the bullshit might stand. Not good.
If it's too much to deal with, go elsewhere.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 12, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
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Once a bundle is "spent" (after 12-18 months in the reactor), it is highly
radioactive. The 1978 "Ontario Royal Commission on Electric Power
Planning" (aka: "Porter Commission") stated, "The extreme lethality of a
freshly removed spent fuel bundle is such that a (unprotected) person
standing within a metre of it would die within an hour."
They would likely die within seconds. That said, before they go into the reactor, the dose in negligent, in that we do a hands on inspection of them, actually touching the bundles, and get zero dose from them.
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