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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 29, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
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Right back at ya, Minerals. :-)
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Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
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Dec 29, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
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Here is my Hurricane.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 29, 2010 - 07:11pm PT
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Thanks, Acer!
So, the Hurricane is about 11.2 to 11.3 ounces.
The Petzl Rocpec is 198 grams, which equals 6.98424 ounces. Call it 7 ounces.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 29, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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Sweet! I'm off the hook on hauling that stuff in to work tomorrow. Acer, is the blue pacifier so that when your calves start burning you can pop that in your mouth so your partner doesn't hear you crying and wailing?
Cause if it is, I need one. Brilliant!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 29, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
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Thanks so much, Acer! Looks like I'm right on target weight-wise (a bit under, actually). Good to know, as there isn't much more material left for me to remove (read: IMHO Duece did a damn fine job with the Hurricane and I'm having a hard time improving upon it :-) )
Thanks again!
-aric.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Dec 29, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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Loving the design conversations from afar...
That other collet type (ER) definitely looks interesting. Not sure if we considered it and/or why we might have passed it by if so.
If it's holding force is that much greater, then the idea/dream of a hand-tightenable simple collet system might work?
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 29, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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It just might, Duece, and with luck we'll know next week... I just finished machining a couple shanks for my design and will do the sleeves, nuts and striking pieces tomorrow, at which point it's on to heat treating....
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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I should throw the titanium model I have just to compare the weight when I return.
I found a couple other photos of the proto i made. Tea has this one now. Shown is a 3/8 and a 1/4 ER16 collet.
If I were to make another, I would turn the holder down a bit more. I would also mill the wrench flats closer to the locknut and increase the grip length a bit.
For the cable groove, I found that if you chuck it into the lathe and take an angle grinder to it, combined with a steady hand, gives you a perfect groove for the cable leash
Can't wait to see yours.
Edit: You could also use a locknut that takes a spanner wrench, my thoughts were that you could use a slightly modified Nut tool to secure the locknut and eliminate the need for a second wrench.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Dec 30, 2010 - 12:41am PT
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Gear porn rules.....if there's no route porn to drool over.
Interest grows. In a good way. Oh, yes.
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Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
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Dec 30, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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HAHA Thanks Bill.
That is my A5 whine controller.
I need to get a 1/4 collet for my drill. I will look back at the links.
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bubble boy
Big Wall climber
topanga, CA
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Dec 30, 2010 - 09:35am PT
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Ill buy two for sure. Sign me up, and THANKS if it goes through.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 30, 2010 - 11:29am PT
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Here's the current incarnation, Luke and Minerals. At the moment I can't get the cross bar to play nice with the free floating grip (major pinch hazard), so it's been removed for now. To help minimize strain on your wrist the grip can move ~1/4" axially and is biased in the forward position by a spring contained within the sleeve. Also of note is the sleeve is keyed to the flats on the collet end of the shank, thereby providing a reliable method of rotating the drill. There's ~3.75" of usable grip length due to it extending over the nut, which should make it quite comfy. Overall it's 4.80" long and should come in ~10 ounces with collet and leash. If it end up working well I'll revisit the wrenchless design idea, as that would be wicked nice.
And just as a reminder to anyone showing up late, this is _not_ the drill Luke's having made but rather a new design we're toying around with.
-aric.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 30, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Luke wrote:
“Shown is a 3/8 and a 1/4 ER16 collet.”
Acer wrote:
“I need to get a 1/4 collet for my drill.”
Hey, I don’t know what kind of rock you guys are drilling into, but for solid granite (Yosemite-type rock), you need to go 1/64” bigger than the standard 3/8” and 1/4” HSS drill bit sizes.
1/4” split-shank buttonheads require a 17/64” hole in solid rock. If you drill a standard 1/4” hole, the buttonhead will most likely bend during placement, and the edge of the hole will crater. It’s too tight of a hole. The same goes for 3/8”. If you try to pound a 3/8” 5-piece into a hole drilled with a 3/8” HSS bit, you will also have problems. The hole is again too tight and the cone may get stuck. A 25/64” HSS bit is required for proper hole diameter. If you keep your eyes open to bolt details at the crags, I bet you will sooner or later find 5-piece bolts that look like someone pounded on the hex-head way too much, because it’s beat up and deformed. This is due to drilling a hole that is too tight. Not good.
If the ER series collets work in the same manner as the DA series collets, then they have a compression range of 1/64 of an inch. This means that for the proper size HSS bits, you need a 17/64” collet for 1/4” bolts and a 25/64” collet for 3/8” bolts. A 25/64” collet comes standard with the Hurricane and will also accept SDS bits.
Just wanted to clarify, so that no one ends up with the wrong size collets and bent bolts that never fully seat.
Speaking of my favorite SDS bits, maybe we should set the record straight.
“The SDS bit was developed by Bosch in 1975 and the name comes from the German "Steck – Dreh – Sitz" (Insert – Twist – Stay). German-speaking countries may use "Spannen durch System" (Clamping System), though Bosch uses "Special Direct System" for international purposes.”
Found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_bit_shank#SDS_shank
Hey Aric, can’t wait to take that thing for a spin! Lookin’ pretty futuristic there. Another neat diagram!
“Overall it's 4.80" long and should come in ~10 ounces with collet and leash.”
The total length of the Hurricane, from striking surface to the end of the collet nut, is about 4 5/8”, so you are pretty close. Shaving an ounce off the Hurricane weight doesn’t sound bad either, although I will say that there is such a thing as “too light” with regard to hand drills; Theron and I are in agreement on this.
A few questions:
Are there wrench flats on the drill holder itself? To tighten the collet nut, do you have to put a wrench on the replaceable striking piece? And, to replace the striking piece, where does the wrench go on the drill holder? What size wrenches do the collet nut and striking piece require?
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 30, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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A few questions: ....
Sorry about not labeling the earlier diagram... I was eager to get down to the machine once I finished modeling the nut and spring. This should make things more clear:
The flats on the shank and striking piece are both 9/16" and should accommodate wrenches up to 0.150" thick. The hex on the nut is 13/16" and yes, for now you'll have to use a wrench on the flats on the striking piece for opening and closing the collet. I'm still pondering the wrenchless thing, and will pursue it in earnest should this end up working well.
Also of note is that you will need to pop the grip off to gain access the the wrench flats on the shank (needed to remove the striking piece). I'm not expecting to need to glue the grip in place (thanks to the flange on the sleeve keeping it from moving), so popping it off shouldn't be too hard to do.
Ok, back to work....
-a.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 30, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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OK, I thought those were wrench flats behind the collet nut threads but wondered about access, considering the grip. Looks like the grip has to be pulled just about all the way off to replace the striking piece, or to tighten it up. Is there enough clearance on the grip such that the collet nut and collet can be easily removed, without messing with the grip?
If a bit becomes stuck in the rock and a wrench is required on the drill holder, the holder should be cranked in a clockwise direction, to avoid loosening the striking piece. (EDIT: I guess you could also use a wrench on the collet nut to loosen a stuck bit, but would then have to turn the wrench in a counter-clockwise direction in order to keep the collet nut tight on the holder.)
Still wondering if the grip will stay put without any sort of glue. But that’s where the fun part comes in – testing!
So for now, the drill holder requires a thin 9/16” wrench and a 13/16” wrench. Got it.
Thanks, Aric!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 30, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
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OK, I thought those were wrench flats behind the collet nut threads but wondered about access, considering the grip. Looks like the grip has to be pulled just about all the way off to replace the striking piece, or to tighten it up.
Yup, but this should be a once-in-a-blue-moon kind of thing since I plan on putting a heat-releasable loctite on the threads of the striking piece to prevent it from loosening.
Is there enough clearance on the grip such that the collet nut and collet can be easily removed, without messing with the grip?
It's hard to tell in that pic, but yup, the flats on the collet nut are fully exposed when the grip/sleeve is in the forward position. Here's a view that makes it clearer...
If a bit becomes stuck in the rock and a wrench is required on the drill holder, the holder should be cranked in a clockwise direction, to avoid loosening the striking piece. (EDIT: I guess you could also use a wrench on the collet nut to loosen a stuck bit, but would then have to turn the wrench in a counter-clockwise direction in order to keep the collet nut tight on the holder.)
Hmm... Hadn't thought about the drill getting stuck. Seems like you're correct that between the collet nut and striking piece you'd have a thread that's locking each direction, so no fear about something coming off (provided you turn the correct one... ). It's too late to change it for this round of prototypes (already threaded the shanks), but it's certainly something we can change.
Still wondering if the grip will stay put without any sort of glue. But that’s where the fun part comes in – testing!
Well, the way I figure the most likely direction for it to move is backwards during a hammer blow, and with that big flange there there's nowhere for it to go. Sure, there's nothing keeping it from going the other direction, but given that I've had to resort to hammering on it to get the grip off the prototype I don't think it's going to be a problem. Time will tell though, and glue is easy enough to add.
Thanks, Aric!
And thanks to you and Luke for humoring me with this! :-)
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 30, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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“Is there enough clearance on the grip such that the collet nut and collet can be easily removed, without messing with the grip?”
“It's hard to tell in that pic, but yup, the flats on the collet nut are fully exposed when the grip/sleeve is in the forward position. Here's a view that makes it clearer...”
The wrench flats on the collet nut do appear to be exposed enough for a wrench – it should be fine for changing bits. I’m wondering… if the collet nut is completely removed, is it difficult to get the collet out of the holder because it is recessed within the rubber grip, or does it pop right out? This would be in order to change between a 17/64” collet and a 25/64” collet. If you had two of these drills that were setup for different size bits, as I do with the Hurricane, you wouldn’t have to worry about changing collets at all. Well, except for cleaning.
As far as the grip loosening, I was wondering if it would creep with rotational force or forward force. When drilling out 1/4” holes with an SDS bit, you really have to crank on the drill holder because the bit binds a little with each hammer strike until the hole is deep enough. If the grip is that tight on the drill (that you have to hammer on it), then I don’t really see it spinning; it just might not stay put over time. We’ll see!
It looks like if you remove the striking piece, the spring can be removed as well for replacement, if it wears out or breaks. That’s good.
So, I assume that the tag hole washer sits loose, in the ~1/4” slot between the flange of the aluminum sleeve and the flange of the striking piece. Yes?
One thing that I worry about with the striking piece is the thin cross-section where the threaded section meets the main portion of the piece. Again, I’m not a mechanical engineer, but this looks like a weakness to me. The outer flange of the striking piece is of a larger diameter than the threaded section and it is not supported from hammer strikes (as opposed to a shank with a constant diameter). I don’t know if it would be much of a factor, but wonder if excessive hammer strikes on the edge of the flange may cause it to bend or break. I also wonder if leverage may be a slight factor, contributing to the possibility of snapping the striking piece in half (with the threaded section still attached to the drill holder shank and the other half who knows where).
Here’s a quick rough sketch:
Striking piece cross-sections:
(a.) Based on your diagrams, this looks to be about the shape of the striking piece (roughly). Red arrows point to what I think may be a weakness. The wrench flats would also contribute to the weakness.
(b.) Another possible design. I don’t know if this would make much of a difference, but it looks stronger to me. It is slightly taller, but shouldn’t affect the overall length of the drill holder by much. There isn’t as much surface area on the striking surface, but it seems more sturdy.
I see how the threaded section of the striking piece can’t be any thicker because it has to fit inside the aluminum sleeve. Hmmm. The hammer will tell all!
Maybe I should stop asking you questions and just wait to check one out. That way, you might get more work done! :)
Great stuff, Aric! This discussion is way freakin’ cool and your diagrams kick arse!
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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Minerals,
You are right on the collet size. It was late and I was thinking in bit sizes.
My bad. SO anoyone out there looking for collets, go 1/64 larger on collet size.
Just got word from the shop. Proto is to be delivered on 1/14/11.
If it all checks out then 249 more are to be completed on 2/7/11. My birthday wierd enough.
Thanks,
Luke
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grover
climber
The Gar, BC.
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Dec 30, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
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So um.... without sounding like a prick but.... um.....do you guys have like an extended warranty on this rig?
Ahahahhahhha............
Good to see you around Aric.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 30, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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No, no, Minerals... Keep the comments flowing. They're much appreciated, especially when they come before I start making chips. :-)
In this case I'm a step ahead of you and simply didn't update the models to reflect a change I briefly mentioned a couple pages back... In an attempt to protect the threads from deforming the end of the shaft is turned down to a smaller diameter, which is a tight fit into a corresponding recess in the striking piece. There's also a small fillet around the underside of the striking piece, which should help strengthen the joint as well. In case that doesn't make any sense, here's how I actually made the shank and how I plan on doing the striking pieces....
And actually, staring at this over dinner I found a solution to the cross piece issue that avoids the pinch hazard. I'll be leaving it out for now as I'd rather make sure the holder/ER collets work before any more significant changes, but retrofitting it would be no big deal and come at a cost of a small increase in weight (the bar itself) and 1/8" shorter grip length.
As for your other questions...
I’m wondering… if the collet nut is completely removed, is it difficult to get the collet out of the holder because it is recessed within the rubber grip, or does it pop right out?
By design ER collets are held captive within the locknut, and removing them can be a bit fiddly (read: I've dropped them without being precariously perched on a cliff). That said, this can be worked to your advantage by simply having the larger collet preplaced in another locknut with the larger drill already inserted; with the drill there the collet can't collapse enough to escape the locknut and then the whole assembly can be swapped out quick and easy rather than messing with the individual components.
That said, I may be reading your question wrong and instead you're asking about the fit between the grip and the locknut. I won't know how loose that is until I get the locknuts machined, but I'm shooting for them to be 0.860" diameter (IIRC) and the grips are sized for 0.875 so I expect they'll come out with little fuss (but hopefully enough friction to prevent them from simply falling out if unscrewed too far).
So, I assume that the tag hole washer sits loose, in the ~1/4” slot between the flange of the aluminum sleeve and the flange of the striking piece. Yes?
Yup, the tag hole washer is a loose fit around the striking piece and rides in the 1/4" of free space that the grip is able to slides into when the end is hit.
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