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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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It's Jim's bible! That ain't no joint in his hand either, his Camel non filter that he smokes to the very end, no waste for The Bird.
Peace
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Yeah, I'm afraid we're no longer a science and technology culture but instead a celebrity and woowoo culture.
When China kicks our ass later this century, it won't be without a reason or two.
You might be interested to know that religion is undergoing a revival in China as it modernizes and discovers that materialism is not ultimately satisfying. No less than Tony Blair has established a faith foundation to promote inter-religious understanding at Beijing University.
http://www.tonyblairfaithfoundation.org/newsroom/c/our-news
Not to mention that China is the home of acupuncture, chi gong, and other forms of energy manipulation, in addition to the usual martial arts and meditation.
My first introduction to multiple ways of thinking incidentally, happened on my first trip to Asia when I visited a Chinese physicist that I had met at CERN and was very surprised to find that he believed in ghosts.
Of course Chinese people have never been confined to just one belief system. They've always constructed their personal philosophy from a blend of Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, and folk traditions. Modern ones have added a knowledge of Christianity and Islam as well. Meanwhile, the two fastest growing religions in China are Tibetan Buddhism and Pentacostal Christianity, both into personal experiences of the non ordinary.
As far as I'm concerned, it's people who believe in only one system, one way, black or white, either or, type thinking that are the woo woo ones. Of course that's fine if you find it personally satisfying, but I find it boring and limiting and very very western.
China does in fact represent the future, and it will be full of diversity. Their experiment with atheist Marxism was good for the destruction of the old system, but proved unworkable to build anything positive. They will not fall again for a supposedly new, more modern, more scientific monoview of the world.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan- Your post was so predicted.
You do write so condescendingly at times. As though we sists or science aficionados, advocates, never break out of our test tubes. As though we never look up to have any grasp of eastern cultures.
Make an effort to come to grips with nature as is. Specifically, (1) its mechanistic mechanics, (2) the mortality of its living things. Leave the superstitions where they belong. In ol times. That's the challenge, that's the chore. Yours, too, obviously.
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Mimi
climber
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Corn sugar, you're way off base regarding Jan's perspective. You should apologize to her for your insolence.
Regarding the Chinese however, I believe they and the rest of the planet are caught up in materialism like everyone exposed to it. We're all doomed.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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No free passes, Mimi. Not for religions. Not for girls.
Jan's a paranormalist, deep in superstitions. Who uses her "scientific" training in anthropology (so it's reported) to disrespect the physical sciences at just about every turn. To get ahead, you gotta call em as you see them.
If Jan's really interested in these topics, she needs to take a few electronics engineering courses, which bring with them control systems, info science, mechanistic mechanics savvy.
Hope this isn't the end of our beautiful relationiship, Mimi.
............
(1) Whether superstitions are Eastern or Western, they are still superstitions.
(2) Don't patronize women, treat him as equals.
..........
cf:
"Corn sugar, you're way off base regarding Klimmer's perspective. You should apologize to him for your insolence."
NOT!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mimi wrote-
"Regarding the Chinese however, I believe they and the rest of the planet are caught up in materialism like everyone exposed to it. We're all doomed."
Once again, the overly familiar bait n switch: from (biotic) materialism to (economic) materialism. If he's a (biotic) materialist, then this must mean he's an all-around materialist (i.e., economic materialist, consumer materialist). Not.
It's time we had a new language system to reflect the new thinking. Thank the Gods (Ashtar to Zeus) some are working on it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 10, 2010 - 01:33am PT
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i've developed an admiration for pre-communist china, a more humane way of doing empire, a tolerant, humanist culture. power politics is a monster, but it's an inevitable one until we learn to get back to the good things of tribalism. china did empire better. the west has been overbrutal, beginning with rome, and that dark modus festers beneath the veneer of christian pacifism.
it's worth a talk. communism represented a europeanization to the chinese, their ticket to getting into the big, modern, western world in an idealistic way. you have to remember that they reacted to the colonization/exploitation free-for-all led by the british, with the french, german, americans and japanese all joining in. the only good thing that came of that was tsing-tao beer. the chinese weren't prepared to handle that kind of unscrupulous aggressiveness. the japanese have still have egg on their face from that era, but the british have it much worse.
and now, jan, you tell me that phony tony blair is beating jimmy carter at the religious hypocrite elder statesman game. i can't think of a better emetic.
----
wade, you are a master subliminalist. how did you know the cheshire cat has been one of my heroes since childhood? treat yourself here to something lexical:
http://www.cat-lovers-gifts-guide.com/cheshire-cat-quotes.html
(wade icey--yet another specimen of the paranormal, more psychic than most women. what a thread!)
LEB, be careful about metaphors. they extend themselves unexpectedly and bite the beauteous gluteus. say what you will about pate, latrines are necessary things. without them, we'd all wind up full of sh#t.
and LEB, if you come around here you have to talk climbing at least part of the time, whether you're a climber or not.
huffcuss, you annelid, what the hell is a sist? do you mean cyst?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 10, 2010 - 02:20am PT
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 10, 2010 - 02:52am PT
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HFCS wrote
Karl, not. We must have different dictionaries, different lexicons.
What you describe is the supernal. Supernal and supernatural are different. Supernal and paranormal are different.
Supernal describes (a) phenomena or (b) knowledge outside the realm of humanity, human sensory appartus or human understanding.
Paranormal describes ghosts, etc. Watch Poltergeist. Read a book by Sylvia Browne. That's paranormal.
Don't try to smooth over, air brush, the superstitious ignorance out there. It only leads to more trouble down the line.
Can't agree bro. Ghosts are simply outside the realm of humanity's easy detection. Perfectly natural in their own sphere.
I know a number of folks (including me) who have had experiences with "Ghosts" which are merely spirits sort of stuck near this realm. Many of these folks were atheists or agnostics who saw the "ghost" and later identified it with relatives as being identical to someone who lived there in a previous generation but died a violent, untimely death. In fact, when you find out about anyone claiming to see ghosts and know who they were, you'll find that suicides, violent deaths, and such are what results in spirits having to hang out near this earth world for longer than those who die of ripe old age. Kind of a mystery but fairly consistent.
They are only supernatural because they are outside our realm of usual perception. Lots of things used to be out of our realm of perception but now science has given us tools to detect them. Ghosts exist in a dimension bordering human perception but generally outside it. Certain conditions can make them visible to us, perhaps briefly, sort of like the Aurora Borealis sometimes comes South enough to be visible where it usually isn't present
To make this more on topic, There is a cabin or two in Curry Village that gets consistent reports of Ghosty stuff, and Sierra Sky Ranch, between Oakhurst and Yosemite has a number of Ghosts and is regularly investigated by folks who are into that stuff.
Peace
karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 10, 2010 - 04:56am PT
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Fructose-
I get the feeling that you do not really understand what a cultural anthropologist does as opposed to a physical anthropologist or archaeologist who deals almost exclusively with the physical.
Cultural anthropology by contrast, is an art form as much as a social science. To really get an inside view of a culture, one has to enter into it with no prejudgements. One records what people say they believe and looks for patterns and causes, but never, or very rarely, makes value judgements. It's called cultural relativism and implies intuition and empathy. That, not logic, is the foundation of the discipline.
Our theory is based on what we actually find, not what we hope or want to find. No one would last more than a few days in a nonwestern village telling the locals that they are ignorant and superstitious. Not to mention that we have often discovered that many seeming superstitions actually have deep ecological logic once we are clever enough to figure it out.
This is not always the case, particularly in applied anthropology which I have also done. I did make the judgement to encourage Hindu women to stop rubbing fresh cow dung on their new born baby's umbilical cords as it gave them tetanus. I used a universal humanistic/spiritual value (not just a western or Christian one) when I decided that a baby's life was worth more than an erroneous local belief.
There were days when I discovered local beliefs like this that I took to my stash of scotch when the day was over, but I never expressed outright disapproval. Instead, I thought of clever work arounds that would be acceptable cultural substitutes for what they were already doing. I convinced them to change by using their own local reasoning in new ways, not by telling them they were ignorant and superstitious.
As a result, I have been told by Chinese, Okinawan, Indian, Nepalese, Tibetan and Sherpa people that I am the first western person they ever met who truly understood their culture, which is probably the greatest compliment that an anthropologist can receive. I got to this understanding and acceptance by learning their culture, not judging it. Like almost everyone who learns another culture deeply, I also came to the view that other cultures understand things ours don't and do a lot of things better than we do.
If you deem this unscientific or antiscientific, so be it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 10, 2010 - 07:58am PT
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getting back to the subjects of latrines, of pate, the subliminal and LEB's upcoming career in rockclimbing, i think we all ought to chip in and buy her a copy of how to sh#t in the woods by kathleen meyer, a colorado river guide who has rediscovered this lost art. if LEB still associates latrines with camping, there's a good chance she'll be stuck in a curry village tent cabin when she dies with the ghost of TR (ed hartouni knows who that is), trying to atone for allowing the damming of the hetch-hetchy (maybe wasn't his fault, but he could've done more).
but LEB, part of your problem with pate is the subliminal resemblance your two photos bear to nuns. perhaps wadesky could photoshop one of them a little to bear that out (pesky puns). you just have that look, so sorry to tell you. you kinda remind me of sister alberta marie, the great, overbearing influence on my adolescence. the cut of your hair squares your face off in exactly the manner of many nun's habits. if you want to get pate off your trail, you gotta get as unnunnish as possible. the first step is to shop some of chris mcnamara's fine advertisers and go for the steph davis look. the second step is to get your tootsies on the rock. once you start flinging real rock talk around here you'll be surprised at the empowerment, babe.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2010 - 10:44am PT
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here is a critique of astrology which sets up a number of questions related to LEB's original question and why her "research" methodology is seriously flawed.... she can't or won't see it, which is part of my frustration in dealing with her... if research were as trivial as she (and others of you) make it out to be then why would we scientists be in business at all?
http://www.astrosurf.com/nitschelm/Modern_criticism.pdf
Kelly, I. "Modern Astrology: A Critique"
Summary
This article is a methodological and philosophical critique of astrology. It argues that astrology, as it is presently practiced by the majority of astrologers (in either its traditional, or psychological form), offers no valid contribution to understanding ourselves, nor our place in the cosmos. Astrology itself is deeply problematic from beginning to end. Central notions like "as above, so below" and "interconnectedness" are too poorly developed by astrologers to amount to anything useful. There is little consensus on basic techniques and theories, and little agreement on how to settle differences among astrological techniques and theories. Astrological symbolism is unsystematic and based on metaphors, analogies, verbal associations, and mythology, all of which are developed in different ways by astrologers with no clear way of evaluating them. The philosophies or world-views associated with astrology are underdeveloped or poorly articulated. Modern advocates cannot provide research studies that have results commensurate with the claims made in astrology books. Astrologers rely on anecdotes or testimonials as central evidence, seemingly unaware or uninterested in the potential flaws and biasses inherent in such stories as evidence. Astrology as a discipline is a prime example of what happens when advocates consider only confirming evidence for their multitude of conflicting claims with little regard for contrary evidence, which is either 'explained away' by appeals to other parts of the horoscope, or with slogans like 'the complexity of astrology,' and 'astrology is another way of viewing the world.'
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 10, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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Ed, see my post on Astrology above and explain how it's possible.
You could post a similar critic on politics, how it's ineffective, lame and mispracticed and its principles don't work and it might be equally valid.
I didn't post the predictions made regarding myself, which were equally precise, specific and timely.
I didn't cause people would simply ignore them and discount me because that's human nature. You could get beat over the head with this stuff and still pretend to rationally and scientifically ignore it.
Just because a certain science is generally mispracticed and misunderstood doesn't mean it doesn't have its own power.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 10, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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Pate, looks like you've been tagged, bro.
.............
Alright, why don't we get specific. In my world, it's called hyperionics. -Which is the study of anything that is not obedient to the basic sciences, i.e., physics and chemistry, not the school subjects but the mechanistic processes. (That's a simple enough definition. Right?)
So, as an example, armed with this understanding, say, as any school kid would be after taking a course in Hyperionics 101 in tomorrow's high school or community college, he'd know about, for instance, (a) paranormal hyperionics, (b) supernatural hyperionics, (c) ghost hyperionics. (-Which for the most part are the subjects of this thread. Right?)
Now, with this little bit of background, those like me can express to you our stance in Believersville: Hyperionics (in all its forms) is as antiquated, as uninformed, as unscientific, as unsubstantiated, and therefore as bogus, as astrology (belief that stars, planets, celestial objects control our lives). So that's a point, one point.
One more point. "Hyperionics is bogus." Yeah, that's my stance. Is it "close-minded?" Opposing sides (aka the naysayers) will say so. But then again, from my side's perspective, it is a decision. It is the consequence, the product, of decision-making - as I've said before, arguably the premiere feature of our species- decision-making is - so I'm proud of it and honored to express it. Through decision-making, for better or worse, is how we come to our ideas, thoughts, beliefs and ultimately action (behavior) on the way to getting things done.
"Closemindedness" hardly fits. Indeed, it's a leftover term from all the arguments down through the decades with religious fundamentalists. In contrast, scientists, applied scientists, science advocates are some of the most open-minded human beings I know. Show them a ghost, show them even the tiniest iota of any phenomena that is hyperionic, i.e., that is not "obedient" to physics and chemistry - and you shall see how open-minded they are.
Closemindedness, no. Decision-making, yes. That is the correct framing. You boys and girls who find yourself at odds with the mechanistic mechanics motif of the Scientific Story should make an effort to distinguish the two.
Decision making in the areas of (a) how the world works and (b) how life works is a good thing. It's a good thing- esp when it is right decision making. To you decision makers: You should be proud of your decision-making capability. Be proud of your decisions. State them. State your beliefs (i.e., mental holdings) in regard to your decision making and education and experience. Be proud of them. Live up to them. As a decision-making creature of the Cosmos. And then let the chips fall where they may. Be accountable for them. That's how it should work. That's how it does work.
........
EDIT
Jan and I have been butting heads. Why? because (a) she claims she's scientific, then again, it is as if every other one of her posts are dissing "mechanistic mechanics" and pushing for belief in dynamics or entities or things or phenomena that operate independently of (or not "obedient to") basic physics and chemistry. -Which no side of modern science today recognizes. Because there is no substantive evidence. Indeed, because every thing (e.g., every engineering product) the world today knows about operates "obediently" in terms of physics and chemistry. Today's so-called Scientific Story- from quantum mechanics to biochemistry to evolution to neuroscience to cosmology- all contribute to the idea that life and living things are obedient to physics and chemistry in a mechanistic mechanics way (via mechanisms of action, e.g., or biophysics).
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 10, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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Reality consists of limits - the limits of the natural world. The Abrahamic religions don't do a very good job at respecting them. Nor do they make any effort to deal with them straight up, as is.
The Abrahamic religions build up expectations that nature, that life, is larger than it is, more than it is. Then along the course of life these expectations are dashed. By a growing maturity in the understanding of things. But then millions wonder why as adults growing older they are saddened, despirited, if not depressed. For many, it is no mystery.
Make the effort as early in life as you can to deal with nature and its seamy sides straight up. Make the effort to build your expectations in accordance with how the world works and how life works.
No living thing is "above the law" - the law of the natural world. This includes anthropes.
.............
EDIT to ADD: 12:55pm. Good. No additional post in a couple of hours. Thread is now buried. Hope we put this lame silliness to rest. We can hope.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 10, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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i don't think ed will ever be disposed to anything but hostile engagement in these matters, and i wonder why all his buddies here just don't leave him alone about it. face it, ed's a skeptic and has his own beliefs and won't look at these things with an open mind. he's probably a fine scientist, but he's not the guy to be consulting here.
perhaps jan might get back in touch with that fellow she met at CERN.
meanwhile, LEB, let me refer you to something largo posted on the belief in god thread, july 17, 2:11 pm. it's a speculative treatment of the physics of mind, if you will, by a sri lankan professor, apparently philosophy of science, although not really a physicist.
huff, you gotta make up your mind. either stamp out all of us tin-hatted loopies with your stellar logic based on words and ideas we're sure to have in common, or start your own pretty universe based on all those cool words you like to invent. you're not going to get either one done if you try to do both.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Aug 10, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
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Paranormal is 99% coincidental. The other 1% is weird unexplainable sh#t.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 10, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
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Corn Sugar,
You are so full of yourself it is truly a wonder. And to top it off, you conform more to all the worst attributes of a preacher/true believer than all those to which you look down your nose.
This is a first time post, but I am well aware of the characters here. If I had to describe you from your posts, it would be as a youth without experience. If you are not this, then you haven't learned diddly.
SF
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 10, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
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Let me guess, a believer in ghosts? a fundamentalist Christian? Beliefs matter. Science illiteracy mattters. Just minutes ago I read a piece about a Muslim father suspected of killing his two daughters and fleeing the country (a so-called "Honor Killing") because they didn't adhere to Quranic teaching and what the God of Moses (Allah) wanted. So let's hear YOUR philosophy on things.
What I'm full of... is science education and a determination to live up to it. If my ilk weren't so rarefied in the population I wouldn't have to express it so emphatically. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Express YOURSELF. Or go away. Am I full of bullsh#t, if so, let's hear it. In what subject. Ad hominem attacks get us nowhere.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 10, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
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If my ilk weren't so rarefied in the population I wouldn't have to express it so much. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
See, you are on a mission. Fundamentalist I am not - and you do great disservice to science.
SF
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