missing solo sailer

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JohnRoe

Trad climber

State College, PA

Jun 14, 2010 - 01:53pm PT

I have "Sailing Alone Around the World" - great book.

To succeed, however, in anything at all, one should go understandingly about his work and be prepared for any emergency. I see, as I look back over my own small achievement, a kit of not too elaborate carpenters' tools, a tin clock, and some carpet tacks, not a great many, to facilitate the enterprise as already mentioned... But above all to be taken into account were some years of schooling, where I studied with diligence Neptune's laws, and these laws I tried to obey when I sailed overseas; it was worth the while.

Slocum was 54 when he finished his voyage. You have to read the book to find out what he used the carpet tacks for...

cliffhanger

Trad climber

California

Jun 14, 2010 - 02:02pm PT

If 18 is old enough to ship out to Iraq and Afghanistan as cannon fodder, then 16 is plenty old enough to go sailing alone.

No wait, 18 is far too young to die in those God forsaken wars.

cleo

Social climber

Berkeley, CA

Jun 14, 2010 - 02:56pm PT

Moosie, I'm only speaking for myself, not for you. I like to be able to live my life as I choose, hence I tend to err on the side of freedom for others. My thinking goes like this:

a) I'm a bit of a Libertarian (and a Darwinist, ha!)

b) I know nothing about sailing.

c) This is deeply in the gray zone between okay and not okay. (16 isn't 11, this isn't pornography or child labor, teenagers and adults have sailed safely in dangerous conditions before, and, as far as I know, there are no laws in any countries prohibiting such a feat).

d) It isn't likely to hurt anybody else. Yes, I know arguments about the safety of others and cost to society can be made (e.g. rescue). Refer to b + c and add a dash of hypocriticism if I were to make that argument, given that I do not try to live my life risk-free. But, at least, I try to mitigate that in MY life by trying to give back (by teaching others, and volunteering on a SAR team (in the past)).

And referring to d) on that list... it DOES bug me that they'd ask "society" for donations to get the boat back, but NOT compensate or help the rescuers (or, start a kids sailing program, or... hundreds of other causes that could benefit from publicity). I'd like to see them mitigate their impact to society (GIVE!), instead of selfishly continuing to TAKE TAKE TAKE!

And, I'm beginning to wonder if Abby's decision to leave now instead of in, say, 4 months was motivated by Reality TV (as the RECORD was unattainable). Yuck. But also, whatever...

Outside

Trad climber

Truckee

Jun 14, 2010 - 03:30pm PT

Yes B is apparent....

The boat will never be recovered.....left at sea to die.....the family has already said he will pay the fisherman for there rescue...

So whats really your problem?

There rich and your not.....well boo hoo...

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Jun 14, 2010 - 03:42pm PT

Hi Cleo, thanks for your answer, though I don't think I understand your position.

Are you saying that we should never butt in? Or at least speak up about our concern? Because I am not advocating creating a law to keep parents from having the freedom to make such a decision. I am just saying that we all have a duty to speak up and not just sit idly by as someone makes a potentially deadly decision.

I wasn't onshore when the father made the decision to let his young son and daughter go play in the large surf we had that day. If I had been, I hope that I would have said something as neither child looked strong enough or experienced enough to be playing in such rough surf. I could tell from offshore as I made my way in that a dangerous situation was developing.

But many here on this thread have spoken up and made it sound like we should never butt in. They seem to be saying that It is the parents decision and only the parents decision and thus we shouldn't say anything, in part because we are climbers who do risky things, so we should just shut up. I disagree with this sentiment. I think the very fact that we do do dangerous things and thus understand the desire and the dangers that we should speak up.

When an accident happens in climbing, we diagnose the mistakes made. We take a hard look at it. I don't have the experience with sailing that others do here, but I do have experience with all sorts of 16 year olds and I can understand the experts opinions that this young lady started too late, so I feel I can make an informed opinion. Plus some here even tried to tell someone like Ken who has the experience to have an informed opinion about sailing that he shouldn't speak up.

So I want to better understand this. Why shouldn't we speak up? If it was your friend, wouldn't you speak up if you thought they were about to make a potentially grave mistake? Does it matter that this person wasn't a friend?

I guess I am just upset over the attitude some have taken on this thread, that we have no business speaking up simply because we would be interfering with a parent. Or simply because they did dangerous things when they were young and survived. I think that it is a failing of our society to desire to stay uninvolved. I don't want a law to be created, but I do think that when it comes to protecting kids, we shouldn't give Carte blanche to parents.

I will say again. I am not for stopping all adventure among the young. But I firmly believe that we have a duty to share our experience and not just sit idly by.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jun 14, 2010 - 03:48pm PT

What would you do to stop it?

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Jun 14, 2010 - 03:59pm PT

Sometimes speaking up is all that is necessary. In this particular case, it appears like ego was involved. And then once the chance to be first was over, ( and actually it wasn't because the other girl also failed), there was still too much momentum built up to allow them to make the decision to wait a few months. So in cases like this, a preponderance of folks speaking up can have an influence. That is all I am advocating.

But so far multiple people have said I shouldn't speak up. I want to know why and if there is ever a case when they would speak up. Because they liberally sprinkled their talk with words like "never", and "not at any time". And that I believe is a mistake.

guido

Trad climber

Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific

Jun 14, 2010 - 04:05pm PT

Slakkey

Interesting that you brought that story to light. We were in French Polynesia at the time and headed west and I remember the boat, the family and the horrible accident. Knowing some in depth facts concerning this disaster I was surprised to learn they had written a book about it.

If my memory is correct, one of the kids was on watch that night and the boat was under autopilot in the vicinity of Maunue island or better know as Scilly Island, rapidly approaching the island, and the person on watch was down below watching a DVD.

Difficult to see these atolls during the day under good conditions and impossible to see at night time. With a little luck there is a strong possibility of hearing the surf breaking on the reef if one is in the cockpit and or monitoring the radar if it is on!

It was the dads dream and the kids were not into the adventure.

C'est la vie!

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Jun 14, 2010 - 04:27pm PT

I doubt in this case that any number of people speaking up before hand would have done anything. This obviously took a long time to get together and it sounds like they put together the appropriate gear. It sounds like the family has extensive sailing experience, and not only that do you know how long it takes to get a good reality TV deal. I am only half way joking, but I have seen this country go way over board on protect the kids from any danger syndrome. All of the good playground toys are gone, someone could get hurt you know. You can't do this because of liability and you can't do that because of this regulation.

cleo

Social climber

Berkeley, CA

Jun 14, 2010 - 04:30pm PT

Moosie,

No, I'm just saying that I personally shouldn't butt in in THIS case, largely because I know nothing about sailing, I don't know this particular 16-year old, and I don't think the parents are completely ignorant about the dangers given that they sail and build boats and have managed to convince other sailors of their competence. If any of that were different, my opinion *might* change, especially if that information leads me to think it is less deeply in the gray zone.

But by all means, you butting in when you see kids playing in dangerous surf or kids skiing into danger is good deed, given that you know better and the kids were younger and the parents obviously ignorant!

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Boulder Creek CA

Jun 14, 2010 - 04:40pm PT

I appreciate that the quality of this dialog seems to have improved dramatically. Good manners are the lubricant for civilization.

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Jun 14, 2010 - 04:41pm PT

Thanks Cleo, for the clarification. Unless you say otherwise, I will put you down in the

"Sometimes it is appropriate to speak up" Catagory...

Instead of the

"It is never okay to speak up" catagory

that yours and others earlier posts seemed to be advocating. Thanks for the clarification.

John

All of the good playground toys are gone, someone could get hurt you know.

We put in a mini climbing wall in the playground at Wawona Elementry school. It is only 10 feet tall and has gigantic plastic holds, but it has no top rope and it leads to some cool areas on the jungle gym we built. There is even a sliding pole that the kids can slide down. And a swinging bridge they can cross. So there is some hope.

FRUMY

Trad climber

SHERMAN OAKS,CA

Jun 14, 2010 - 04:46pm PT

Yes you should speak up its important. First you need to get the facts. Then speak up. cleo I think you mean the best. I feel that you are letting you own personal feelings get in the way of who this young women is. If I'm wrong it's not the first time & I am sorry.
Right now there are a few thousand 10 - 14 teen year olds lining up to start a simi pro motocross race. Almost as many 15 - 17 year olds will be racing in pro races around this & almost ever country in the world. By twenty they either will be to crippled to race or full of titanium & racing hard. Few will finish high school. All will be scared. I don't see anything said about this.
Abby is an experienced sailer. She sailed 1/2 way around the world. She had the right gear & did the right things. She was prepared to stay with her boat for weeks. In the sailing world this is normal. She did good.
I second reading Capt. Joshua Slocum. They don't come any better than Capt. Slocum. SAILING ALONE AROUND THE WORLD is a wonderful book.
Even the great Capt. slocum later in life was lost at sea. It happens

pud

climber

Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia

Jun 14, 2010 - 05:02pm PT

"Right now there are a few thousand 10 - 14 teen year olds lining up to start a simi pro motocross race. Almost as many 15 - 17 year olds will be racing in pro races around this & almost ever country in the world. By twenty they either will be to crippled to race or full of titanium & racing hard. Few will finish high school."

It's getting deep in here.

Slakkey

Big Wall climber

From Back to Big Wall Baby

Jun 14, 2010 - 05:19pm PT

John M and others, The discussion and Opinions etc. in this forum on this subject are mild compared to discussions on this subject in many of the sailing internet forums it is not for the weak that is for sure with people divided as to what is wrong or right. The fact is that often in forums people may express a stronger opinion that they might in a more public situation. People such as Ken M do have a right to their opinion but when you read back not only does he question the timing (something I will; address in a minute) but he does question in a more general context if a Female, age 16 is mentally and physically capable the same things as a male at age 17. IMO you just cant really make that comparison. Making a statement like that in front of any Junior Sailing program would lead to a very heated debate amongst parents and make this one look like weak sauce.

As for the timing issue, this IMO is the most valid argument of the debate. There is no question they were after the record. Was it right or wrong to continue is an answer that they can only provide. Common sense would say wait however people make winter ascents of climbs that most us would not consider but I should point out that most of the solo sailing events in Europe start in the late fall so that they will end up in the Southern part of the world at what is considered a more favorable time. However, in many cases some of the boats dont even get past the Bay of Biscay off the coast of France an area that is known for its rough seas and weather.

this Sat. June 19th is the start of the Single Handed Transpac to Hawaii from San Francisco. In a previous years event a well known sailor was forced to abandon his boat due to severe damage. It can happen to anyone.

Like I said before the debate will continue for some time. Right or Wrong people will have an opinion but if Abbys outcome were more positive in that she completed her journey I am not so sure as many people would be so quick to judge.

Russ Lenarz
Naval Architect, Pt Loma San Diego CA.
Honorary Member Balboa Yacht Club Corona Del Mar CA
Served on committee's for previous US Sailing Championship regattas Sears, Bemis Smythe
Balboa Junior National Pram Championship Regatta
Governors Cup International Junior Match Racing Regatta.

guido

Trad climber

Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific

Jun 14, 2010 - 05:27pm PT

Can you imagine some REAL salt abandoning a floating and maneuverable boat on the high seas?

Now that is an interesting question and yes there are numerous times where REAL old salts have abandoned their floating and maneuverable boats on the high seas.

Skip Allan is considered one of the most talented and experienced offshore sailors in this country.

Stan Honey, the navigation guru of radical offshore passages, who recently navigated the French maxi 103ft French trimaran Groupama 3 to a record 48 day passage around the world, considers Skip one of the top 3-4 seaman on the planet.

With over 200,000 plus miles and a background that reads at the top of the list of Who Is Who in sailing, Skip would be at the top. 27 Transpac races, winner of the Congressional Cup, Double Handed Transpac, Single Handed Transpac, 1977 SORC, 1977 Fastnet race, helmsmen on Imp in the disastrous Fastnet Race of 1979 when 15 sailers were lost and thousand and thousand of solo miles on his Tom Wylie designed Hawkfarm boat named Wildflower.

Oh yes and he learned to climb with his Stanford buddies Chuck Kroger and Scott Baxter. Ring a bell?

Two years ago after winning the Single Handed Transpac race and on his return passage to Santa Cruz, Skip was forced to abandon his much loved and cherished Wildflower at sea. After days of 25-35 ft breaking seas, exhaustion and self steering problems, Skip chose to call for assistance rather than risk another night at sea. Kind of along the lines of Royal or Sacherer or Messner asking for a toprope.

Now as far as Tristan Jones is concerned:

Great writer and I love his books but you must read them with tongue-in-cheek view.

Jones, once spent several days with us at our house in Santa Cruz while we were building our boat. Bernard Moitessier was staying at our neighbors house and the two met for the first time in the unfinished cockpit of our beloved Shanachie. Two very experienced and fascinating characters in the annals of offshore sailing. Myself, I would go with Moitessier when it comes to the facts.

Oh yes, as a sidelight, Moitessier lost his beloved Joshua in a rare onshore gale in Cabo San Lucas in Nov of 1982 and I vividly remember rounding the corner on our boat and seeing Joshua, wrecked, lying on the beach.

Moitessier had just made the passage from San Diego with Klaus Kinsky as a crewmember. Now that would have been an interesting passage.

cheers

Guido

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jun 14, 2010 - 07:27pm PT

Russ, you said:
"Ken M do have a right to their opinion but when you read back not only does he question the timing (something I will; address in a minute) but he does question in a more general context if a Female, age 16 is mentally and physically capable the same things as a male at age 17."

I don't believe that I made a comparison between a 16 y/o and a 17 y/o, nor between a male and female. I opposed Zach's voyage, as well.

However, here is an interesting question: Just last week, I happened to see Zach's boat, Intrepid, tied up at the dock. I've seen in on the water a number of times in the last 6 months. Why isn't Abby sailing that boat?

There must be a reason. I know a fellow who worked on the boat, and he tells me the boat is in fine shape. Yeah, I mean, you have the opportunity to pick up a newer boat for just $500,000, you gotta jump at it, but why?

I said that I'd not mentioned the difference between males and females, but there is a strength difference in that age group, and strength does make a difference in severe conditions.

guido

Trad climber

Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific

Jun 14, 2010 - 07:56pm PT

OK Rokjok

I have thinking more about your proposal to be dropped on the boat and salvage it.

So, perhaps we take up a collection on ST and have you "dropped" onto Wild Eyes in its current position and you can work out the logistics of a jury rig, steerage, weather, water, power, sea intrusion, communications, Mal de Mer, batteries, disabled engine, sea anchor, drogue, sickness, fear, leaks, injuries, cooking, navigation, and bring her on into port ASAP.

Perhaps you could just lay out a little game plan for us before we cut loose with the buckaroos. You know basic logistics. How to get there and plan of action, port you will head for and anticipated eta etc etc etc....... As a sidelight can you work up a budget on this proposal?

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jun 14, 2010 - 08:01pm PT

Speaking of the SAR aspect of this, I had heard that the Captain of the French fishing vessel fell into the ocean, as they were bringing Abby aboard. He apparently was unhurt, but that was a close call.