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Gene
Social climber
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Jan 28, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
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Cuz they're French. 'Nuff said.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jan 28, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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Blue, interesting link--I can't grasp the concept of Christians and homosexuality, let alone another culture's take on it...
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:30am PT
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I'll admit right now I have not read all the posts so this may have been covered (no pun intended), but Blue- dude I can't get past your posts man...
I'm sure you're a good guy, and maybe we might hook up in the future 'cuz I do read some good stuff from you, but I can't get past your narrow minded seemingly bigoted points of view.
Dude, what the f*ck do you know about the world. Especially the Middle East other than what you read or "hear" from your buddies.
What do you know about any country other than the one you live in? Where have you traveled? Have you spent any time in the world outside your own...for any length of time?
Ya some women are oppressed, but they sure in the sh#t are in the US too.
You sound like you expect everyone to fit into the "perfect mold" of the good 'ol US of A.
Sh#t man, people are different all over the world and the paradox is they are also the same.
If you want to wear a dress who the hell am I to say you can't/shouldn't unless I'm so hung up on myself, or so f*ck'in twisted that I think my way is better than your way.
Look in the mirror- you want everyone to look the same, do the same, be the same...I think knott.
For what it's worth, if women want to (WANT TO) wear a veil let 'em, if they don't help them overcome it, not make a law that says none can...
I get sick of people telling and forcing other to do what they think is "best for them" when in fact, they don't know shite.
Cheers,
DD
edit
I reread this post and realized I'm really slamming Blue-and while I started off that way I guess I should not point my finger just at him. WE collectively have these issues with each other as a population living on this planet. Our differences should be celebrated. Yes things are not perfect everywhere but some of the shite we (USA) do look mighty strange to much of the world. Does that make it wrong, or bad...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:16am PT
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You've got a point, Delhi Dog.
If a man wants to force his wife to wear a veil, that's his right.
If a man wants to mentally abuse his wife to the point where she has lost all her self esteem, and she's too ashamed to show her face in public, that's his right.
It's a man's right to abuse his woman, and we should just mind our own business.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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Where have you traveled? Have you spent any time in the world outside your own...for any length of time?
I lived in Italy, Hong Kong, and the Philippines.
I've visited all over Europe, Yugoslavia, Turkey, Israel, Egypt, Greece, India, Indonesia (Bali), Thailand, Australia, and Mexico.
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Binks
Social climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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Women agree to it, that's at least 1/2 the problem. I don't buy into the "women are helpless" crap. Any woman who believes that needs to wake up. I refuse to agree the widely accepted hypothesis that throughout nearly all of recorded history women have held secondary roles because of systemic violent male oppression. No one I know treats women that way, which is anecdotal evidence, but my experience is that women agree to their roles more often than not. Hello women... you are responsible for your own destiny, it's not men who can empower you or disempower you.
I've heard some first hand reports from Saudi Arabia from friends who lived there working for Aramco. The Saudi women are the first to snitch on each other. The social order is enforced by them just as much as by the men. The women "have the men by the balls" according to her.
A lot of interesting stories I've heard.
Q: How doe the kids tell their mom's apart in a crowd of burquas?
A: It's the shoes. They can wear different shoes. The kids look at the feet.
Q: How do Saudi Women accumulate wealth?
A: It's gold. They are allowed to own gold. So some of those walking tents are weighed down underneath by enormous amounts of gold jewelery.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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We accept turbans, weird Indian garb, but covering your face in not acceptable unless you're in your own home.
I was not aware of that rule. Is that written down anywhere?
I guess I totally misunderstood the laws of our country and the freedoms we have.
Do you really accept turbans or do you secretly hate it?
If these women were FORCED to wear sandals instead of shoes, would a bunch of domineering bigots here suddenly say that our country allows people to wear whatever they like, except for sandals? Those can be worn in home in private but not where I have to see it.
This seems like a contrived rule to go with a disrespect of other cultures.
And give me a break, aren't women in this country (USA) forced to wear make-up, high heels, bras, etc..., because those are our social norms? Sure we don't beat a girl for going natural but we guys would surely ignore here to death. Not much difference here than there.
Dave
P.S. Maybe if we showed these women what respect really means, by not trying to tell them what to do, they might affect change in their cultures. It could take a long time but I'd rather give someone freedom than give them rules.
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Binks
Social climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:22pm PT
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And give me a break, aren't women in this country (USA) forced to wear make-up, high heels, bras, etc..., because those are our social norms?
Uh, my wife wears whatever she wants to. Sneakers jeans and tee shirts mostly. If you have a woman in your life who wears all that stuff... just try telling her its only because she's oppressed by "societal norms". No. They like it. That's why there are bazillions of magazines like Cosmo.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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It's a man's right to abuse his woman, and we should just mind our own business.
That happens all of the time in this country to people who are not from the middle-east. What, people suddenly have a conscience because it's someone from the middle-east who looks like a terrorist but don't give a damn when it's some white guy treating his wife like crap?
There are no laws against mental abuse in this country. Maybe there should be. Until then, everyone should have the same freedom to do mental abuse equally. Don't play favorites and pick on people with visible garb while ignoring mental abuse that is not publicly visible.
Dave
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Binks
Social climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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mental abuse that is not publicly visible.
And women never do this to men. Never. LOL...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
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"Gene, that may be, but shouldn't they have some respect for the culture where they have CHOSEN to go to?"
You mean the ones that have guarantees of religeous expression? When those guarantees are proposed to be ignored, who lacks respect for the culture?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
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"(France) had better deal with them as they are."
Few people deal with reality straight up like this. We all want to change it to fit our own perceived needs or desires.
JL
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:55am PT
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Blue, with all that experience then I really don't get you some times...
I'd think your world view would be broader than it sounds.
Chaz-uh, I'm at a loss as to how you came up with "my point" involving a man forcing (his) women to do anything.
Maybe reread my post.
And, LEB has some interesting Q's...gonna have to think about those.
Largo as usual nailed it,
"We all want to change it to fit our own perceived needs or desires."
Banning cultural and religious traditions seems to me to be f*cked, just because it's different.
Makes you wonder about the future and what next steps are "perceived" to be necessary...
Cheers,
DD
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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I keep telling everyone it's part of the big picture.
Why do you all think Google hasn't backed down from China's censorship and mass population mind control?
America is moving towards that model because democracy is inconvenient for those who are trying to rule the world and build a global civilization on the backs of slaves.
But change takes a longgggg time. And one must prepare the populace slowly, with small things, like hatred of muslims and banning their religious gear.
First they came for the muslims, and I said nothing because I wasn't a muslim.
Oh wait, I am muslim. So I am saying something.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
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See ya tonight, Mason, my Muslim brother!!!
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 30, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
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"First they came for the muslims, and I said nothing because I wasn't a muslim.
Oh wait, I am muslim. So I am saying something."
YES!
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Jan 30, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
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For sure my Nazi brother!!! Er I meant my Christian brother!!
Haha I have nothing but love for you dude.
We should have gone rock climbing today the sun's out!
You should go to Kirkwood with us tomorrow. We're leaving at 5am and coming back Sunday night. Ezra and his wife are going to be out there too!
Happie! Thumbs up!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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I'm heading to the Valley tomorrow. Last minute trip. I'll tell ya about it tonight.
Hopefully there's enough snow to give my skis a go too, in addition to the climbing.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I can't believe people who claim to support freedom would think a law that forbids someone to wear a paticular article of clothing is a good thing.
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