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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Conservatives "attempting to change" it would be an interesting concept (and oxymoronic) with an enormous price tag--so that couldn't be it.
My solution would be to stop subsidizing Israel for our guilt, let the ME oil situation price adjust itself to compete on the global market, the rest will fade away into history.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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Maybe you haven't been paying attention but this has little to do with oil or Israel and 'the Zionists'.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/6922726/Pakistan-suicide-bomber-kills-88-at-volleyball-game.html
http://www.rferl.org/content/Groomed_As_Suicide_Bomber_Pakistani_Boy_Escapes_Taliban/1919536.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581746,00.html
I hope these weren't Mortenson built schools...
http://www.geo.tv/1-2-2010/56039.htm
What do you think is the common denominator? Remember to keep Nigeria, Yemen, India, Thailand, Mali, Algeria, Chechnya, etc in mind when you ponder the question.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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The old "Kill 'em All" strategy IS tempting, but I think I'll keep the previous as my FINAL ANSWER:-)
You're right, the ME isn't the whole picture, but using it to be the epicenter role model for the other countries couldn't hurt, either...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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We have chosen a somewhat more civilian friendly means that hopefully will win the support of peaceful Afghanis.
"We have chosen a somewhat more civilian friendly means" - Ho, ho, ho...
"that hopefully" - He, he, he...
"win the support of peaceful Afghanis" - Ha, ha, ha...
Lol, now that's three genuinely funny things all in a single sentence.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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So, you see bluering and cragman, we are doing it, too.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/4/headlines#6
cragman, after seeing the fine work you are doing down in ecuador, I am completely baffled by your support of actions such as those cited above. If you also claim to be a "christian" then I think you need to do some serious soul searching.
I do not want such actions to be carried out in my name, even if it was an "accident". "Colateral damage" is a certianty in any such military campaign. We need to own up and take responsibility for the "unintended" consequences of our actions.
Isn't 9 years enough? Apparently, the terrorist threat is just as great a it was before 9/11, if you believe "official sources". Actually its probably worse. So, what have we accomplished in the past 9 years of "counter-insurgency". Looks like more people around the world hate America . . .
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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The Reeotch's link...
The killing of the schoolchildren has sparked the most outrage. According to the Times of London, US-led troops dragged innocent children from their beds and shot them during a night raid on December 27. Afghan government investigators said that eight schoolchildren were killed, all but one of them from the same family. The headmaster of the local school said seven of the children were handcuffed and then executed. A preliminary investigation by the United Nations determined that students were killed in the raid. Kai Eide, who heads the United Nations in Kabul, said the UN remained concerned about nighttime raids by coalition troops “given that they often result in lethal outcomes for civilians.”
Do you really buy that? That our guys dragged people out of bed, handcuffed them, and then shot them?
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Based on similar incidents from the recent past, and in Iraq, yes, I buy that. I can't wait to hear the militaty's explanation. Doubtless, it will be completely accurate.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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Reeotch, are you referring to Al Haditha in Iraq? That's where a Time magazine reporter (Tim McGirk?) took the word of a 'local' about the incident that conflicted with military account of what went down. That incident involved an IED on a US patrol killing one soldier immediately and taking small-arms fire from buildings.
Those Marines (which Murtha called "murderers") have been found to be innocent of their charges.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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No, I wasn't referring to any specific incident. Our military has a long track record of killing innocents. When these sorts of things happen, I regard the soldiers to be victims as well, they will pay for it the rest of their lives.
Means must be consistent with the ends. Otherwise we loose all moral high ground.
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Binks
Social climber
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Hijacking planes suddenly became a terrorist war when Bush was president since he wanted an excuse for his agenda. What "they did" isn't as appalling as our response to it, which is way overblown. It's time hijacking a plane be put in perspective of history.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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Binks, it was just a bit more than "hijacking planes". They were rammed into buildings-big buidlings, remember?
How about attacking a warship?
How about blowing up 3 US embassies?
(and that's just what they did to American assets).
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dumb All Over.
You can't run a country by a book of religion,
not by a heap or a lump or a smidgen,
of foolish rules of ancient date,
designed to make you all feel great,
while you fold, spindle and mutilate,
those unbelievers from a neighboring state.
To arms, to arms,
two legs, hey that's great.
Unless there's a crate
they ship the parts to mama in.
For souvenirs, two ears, GET DOWN!
Not his, not hers but what the hey,
the good book says it's gotta be that way.
But thier book says,
Revenge The Crusades.....
With whips and chains and hand grenades.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUAOGt7FmM0
edit: This post isn't an attack on anyone in particular, just a comment on the general endless wheel of retaliation. For both religions, regions, countries, governments, etc.....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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We gotta be careful of them foreign terrorist spying on us, waiting for us to make a false move!!!
Got this off the net somewhere
1947. Information collected by the ADL in its spy operations on US citizens is used by the House Select Committee on Unamerican Activities. Subcommittee Chair Clare Hoffman dismisses the ADL's reports on suspected communists as hearsay."
1950 John Davitt, former chief of the Justice Department's internal security section notes that the Israeli intelligence service is the second most active in the United States after the Soviets.
1954 A hidden microphone planted by the Israelis is discovered in the Office of the US Ambassador in Tel Aviv.
1956 Telephone taps are found connected to two telephones in the residence of the US military attach in Tel Aviv.
1954 "The Lavon Affair". Israeli agents recruit Egyptian citizens of Jewish descent to bomb Western targets in Egypt, and plant evidence to frame Arabs, in an apparent attempt to upset US-Egyptian relations. Israeli defense minister Pinchas Lavon is eventually removed from office, though many think real responsibility lay with David Ben-Gurion.
1965 Israel apparently illegally obtains enriched uranium from NUMEC Corporation. ( Washington Post, 6/5/86, Charles R. Babcock, "US an Intelligence Target of the Israelis, Officials Say.")
1967 Israel attacks the USS Liberty, an intelligence gathering vessel flying a US flag, killing 34 crew members. See "Assault on the Liberty," by James M. Ennes, Jr. (Random House). In 2004, Captain Ward Boston, Senior Legal Counsel for the Navy's Court of Inquiry into the attack swears under oath that President Lyndon Johnson ordered the investigation to conclude accident, even though the evidence indicates the attack was deliberate. Given the use by Israel of unmarked boats and planes, and the machine-gunning of USS Liberty's lifeboats, the most likely explanation is that USS Liberty was to be sunk with all hands, with evidence left to frame Egypt for the sinking. This would have dragged the US into the war on Israel's side.
1970 While working for Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson, Richard Perle is caught by the FBI giving classified information to Israel. Nothing is done.
1978, Stephen Bryen, then a Senate Foreign Relations Committee staffer, is overheard in a DC hotel offering confidential documents to top Israeli military officials. Bryen obtains a lawyer, Nathan Lewin, and the case heads for the grand jury, but is mysteriously dropped. Bryen later goes to work for Richard Perle.
1979 Shin Beth [the Israeli internal security agency] tries to penetrate the US Consulate General in Jerusalem through a "Honey Trap", using a clerical employee who was having an affair with a Jerusalem girl.
1985 The New York Times reports the FBI is aware of at least a dozen incidents in which American officials transferred classified information to the Israelis, quoting [former Assistant Director of the F.B.I.] Mr. [Raymond] Wannal. The Justice Department does not prosecute.
1985 Richard Smyth, the owner of MILCO, is indicted on charges of smuggling nuclear timing devices to Israel ( Washington Post, 10/31/86).
1987 April 24 Wall Street Journal headline: "Role of Israel in Iran-Contra Scandal Won't be Explored in Detail by Panels"
1992 The Wall Street Journal reports that Israeli agents apparently tried to steal Recon Optical Inc's top-secret airborne spy-camera system.
1992 Stephen Bryen, caught offering confidential documents to Israel in 1978, is serving on board of the pro-Israeli Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs while continuing as a paid consultant -- with security clearance -- on exports of sensitive US technology.
1992 "The Samson Option," by Seymour M. Hersh reports, illicitly obtained intelligence was flying so voluminously from LAKAM into Israeli intelligence that a special code name, JUMBO, was added to the security markings already on the documents. There were strict orders, Ari Ben-Menashe recalled: "Anything marked JUMBO was not supposed to be discussed with your American counterparts."
1993. The ADL is caught operating a massive spying operation on critics of Israel, Arab-Americans, the San Francisco Labor Council, ILWU Local 10, Oakland Educational Association, NAACP, Irish Northern Aid, International Indian Treaty Council, the Asian Law Caucus and the San Francisco police. Data collected was sent to Israel and in some cases to South Africa. Pressure from Jewish organizations forces the city to drop the criminal case, but the ADL settles a civil lawsuit for an undisclosed sum of cash.
1995 The Defense Investigative Service circulates a memo warning US military contractors that " Israel aggressively collects [ US] military and industrial technology." The report stated that Israel obtains information using "ethnic targeting, financial aggrandizement, and identification and exploitation of individual frailties" of US citizens.
1996 A General Accounting Office report "Defense Industrial Security: Weaknesses in US Security Arrangements With Foreign-Owned Defense Contractors" found that according to intelligence sources "Country A" (identified by intelligence sources as Israel, Washington Times, 2/22/96) "conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the United States of any US ally." The Jerusalem Post (8/30/96) quoted the report, "Classified military information and sensitive military technologies are high-priority targets for the intelligence agencies of this country." The report described "An espionage operation run by the intelligence organization responsible for collecting scientific and technologic information for [ Israel] paid a US government employee to obtain US classified military intelligence documents." The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (Shawn L. Twing, April 1996) noted that this was "a reference to the 1985 arrest of Jonathan Pollard, a civilian US naval intelligence analyst who provided Israel's LAKAM [Office of Special Tasks] espionage agency an estimated 800,000 pages of classified US intelligence information."
The GAO report also noted that "Several citizens of [ Israel] were caught in the United States stealing sensitive technology used in manufacturing artillery gun tubes."
1996 An Office of Naval Intelligence document, "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" reported that " US technology has been acquired [by China] through Israel in the form of the Lavi fighter and possibly SAM [surface-to-air] missile technology." Jane's Defense Weekly (2/28/96) noted that "until now, the intelligence community has not openly confirmed the transfer of US technology [via Israel] to China." The report noted that this "represents a dramatic step forward for Chinese military aviation." (Flight International, 3/13/96)
1997 An Army mechanical engineer, David A. Tenenbaum, "inadvertently" gives classified military information on missile systems and armored vehicles to Israeli officials (New York Times, 2/20/97).
1997 The Washington Post reports US intelligence has intercepted a conversation in which two Israeli officials had discussed the possibility of getting a confidential letter that then-Secretary of State Warren Christopher had written to Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat. One of the Israelis, identified only as Dov, had commented that they may get the letter from Mega, the code name for Israel's top agent inside the United States.
1997 US ambassador to Israel, Martin Indyk, complains privately to the Israeli government about heavy-handed surveillance by Israeli intelligence agents.
1997 Israeli agents place a tap on Monica Lewinsky's phone at the Watergate and record phone sex sessions between her and President Bill Clinton. The Ken Starr report confirms that Clinton warned Lewinsky their conversations were being taped and ended the affair. At the same time, the FBI's hunt forMega is called off.
2001 It is discovered that US drug agent's communications have been penetrated. Suspicion falls on two companies, AMDOCS and Comverse Infosys, both owned by Israelis. AMDOCS generates billing data for most US phone companies and is able to provide detailed logs of who is talking to whom. Comverse Infosys builds the tapping equipment used by law enforcement to eavesdrop on all American telephone calls, but suspicion forms that Comverse, which gets half of its research and development budget from the Israeli government, has built a back door into the system that is being exploited by Israeli intelligence and that the information gleaned on US drug interdiction efforts is finding its way to drug smugglers. The investigation by the FBI leads to the exposure of the largest foreign spy ring ever uncovered inside the United States, operated by Israel. Half of the suspected spies have been arrested when 9-11 happens. On 9-11, 5 Israelis are arrested for dancing and cheering while the World Trade Towers collapse. Supposedly employed by Urban Moving Systems, the Israelis are caught with multiple passports and a lot of cash. Two of them are later revealed to be Mossad. As witness reports track the activity of the Israelis, it emerges that they were seen at Liberty Park at the time of the first impact, suggesting a foreknowledge of what was to come. The Israelis are interrogated, and then eventually sent back to Israel. The owner of the moving company used as a cover by the Mossad agents abandons his business and flees to Israel. The United States Government then classifies all of the evidence related to the Israeli agents and their connections to 9-11. All of this is reported to the public via a four part story on Fox News by Carl Cameron. Pressure from Jewish groups, primarily AIPAC, forces Fox News to remove the story from their website. Two hours prior to the 9-11 attacks, Odigo, an Israeli company with offices just a few blocks from the World Trade Towers, receives an advance warning via the internet. The manager of the New York Office provides the FBI with the IP address of the sender of the message, but the FBI does not follow up.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html
2001 The FBI is investigating 5 Israeli moving companies as possible fronts for Israeli intelligence.
2001 JDL's Irv Rubin arrested for planning to bomb a US Congressman. He dies before he can be brought to trial.
2002 The DEA issues a report that Israeli spies, posing as art students, have been trying to penetrate US Government offices.
2002 police near the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station in southern Washington State stop a suspicious truck and detain two Israelis, one of whom is illegally in the United States. The two men were driving at high speed in a Ryder rental truck, which they claimed had been used to "deliver furniture." The next day, police discovered traces of TNT and RDX military-grade plastic explosives inside the passenger cabin and on the steering wheel of the vehicle. The FBI then announces that the tests that showed explosives were false positives by cigarette smoke, a claim test experts say is ridiculous. Based on an alibi provided by a woman, the case is closed and the Israelis are handed over to INS to be sent back to Israel. One week later, the woman who provided the alibi vanishes.
2003 The Police Chief of Cloudcroft stops a truck speeding through a school zone. The drivers turn out to be Israelis with expired passports. Claiming to be movers, the truck contains junk furniture and several boxes. The Israelis are handed over to immigration. The contents of the boxers are not revealed to the public.
2003 Israel deploys assassination squads into other countries, including the United States. The US Government does not protest.
2004 Police near the Nuclear Fuel Services plant in Tennessee stop a truck after a three mile chase, during which the driver throws a bottle containing a strange liquid from the cab. The drivers turn out to be Israelis using fake Ids. The FBI refuses to investigate and the Israelis are released.
2004 Two Israelis try to enter Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base, home to eight Trident submarines. The truck tests positive for explosives.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Fattrad, there is a clash going on, but not between civilizations.
It's between ideologies, one being greed and one being fundamentalism, circa 1400 AD.
You have too much joy in contemplating Israel bombing Iran.
I can't vote for someone who can't spell "hear" or Walling..
Love ya man,
B
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Islam didn't appear until the Hegira, in 622 CE, and didn't really become an imperialist religion until after the death of the prophet in 632 CE.
If Fatty and others had their way, we'd all be living in Paranoiastan. Constantly diverted by passing 'threats', disregarding the real issues. The 'terrorists' clearly know all about symbolism - that is, that the symbolism of an attack on airplanes, or using airplanes, is far greater than its actual effects. They get the gullible US to bite every time, and either mis-react, or over-react.
Look, Fatty - something shiny!
Edit: It's funny that Fatty would use the expression "AD". Has he become one of those Jews for Jesus? I guess it's all part of the role when you're in deep cover for the DNC or Mossad or whatever it is.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Ron, what's your suggestion for these Muslims, all 1.2 billion of them?
They represent 22% of the worlds population.
There are a million+ right here in the U.S.
We're not at war with all of them, that's the hard part. Or should I say, that's the GOOD news.
Would you prefer to be friendly to the ones that we can, or just have all out war on all of them?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Hey just like Iraq and Asscrackistan!
Wow, those are working out so well, we should do it all over the place.
*Indonesia
*Pakistan
*Bangladesh
*Nigeria
*Egypt
*Turkey
*Iran
*Sudan
*Algeria
*Malaysia
*Saudi Arabia
*Uzbekistan
*Yemen
*Syria
*Kazakhstan
*Niger
*Burkina Faso
*Mali
*Senegal
*Tunisia
*Guinea
*Somalia
*Azerbaijan
*Tajikistan
*Sierra Leone
*Libya
*Jordan
*U.A.E.
*Kyrgistan
*Turkmenistan
*Chad
*Lebanon
*Albania
*Mauritania
*Oman
*Kosovo
*The Gambia
*Bahrain
*Comoros
*Qatar
*Djibouti
*Brunei
*Maldives
Not to mention our good friends in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Morocco....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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One thing that Fatty likes to avoid discussing is the way in which Israel quietly co-operates with Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan and other Arab countries, particularly vis-a-vis Iran. All have a strategic interest in seeing that Iran gains no more power than it already has, whether conventional arms, or through obtaining nuclear weapons, and some reliable means of delivering them.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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hey, aren't we in bed with saudi arabia, too? were'nt a few of those hijackers saudis? oh yeah, that's right. they were afghanis and iraqis, lol. how come we didn't bomb the sh#t out of saudi arabia? I believe S.A. is responsible for more extremeist islamic thinking than some assbackwards afghanis squatting in a cave in the hindu kush. Whose got more f*#kin money to finance these "plots"? Saudi Arabia or Afhanistan? Wasn't bin laden a saudi?
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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is ignorance bliss? sometimes i wonder. i suppose i could play connect the dots and in some weird, round about way that involves squinting one eye, standing on one foot and ccocking my head to an almost 90 degree angle, i can pull an iraq-911-afghanistan "plot" out of my as#@&%e, shine it up and present it to a the dim-witted, Real World, fast food gobbling dipshits that more and more seem to make up the fabric of this country, and be happy with the horrible consequences. I think i'd rather be right. and be thankful for my 2nd amendment rights, ya know?
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