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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 16, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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Yup that's mine. Love it. Just a fun as climbing.
I can run that all day on 5 gallons of gas. While a big v8 boat uses 10 times the gas. Your point?
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 11:58am PT
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Gotta love libs who cry like babies about "the burning of fossil fuels!" -- then go out and drive gas-guzzlin cars and toys.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 16, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
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This centrist laughs at libs and cons who don't have the courage to see the truth.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
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The Fet -- you are NOT a centrist if you support Obama. No way, no how.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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In the wake of Climategate, common sense deniers like to say that there is lots of other evidence for global warming, in addition to that which has been debunked by the East Anglia whistleblower. Actually, however, the scientific evidence for AGW is remarkably weak. At Icecap, Lee Gerhard, geologist and reviewer for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, sums up the key scientific evidence with admirable brevity:
It is crucial that scientists are factually accurate when they do speak out, that they ignore media hype and maintain a clinical detachment from social or other agendas. There are facts and data that are ignored in the maelstrom of social and economic agendas swirling about Copenhagen. Greenhouse gases and their effects are well-known. Here are some of things we know:
The most effective greenhouse gas is water vapor, comprising approximately 95 percent of the total greenhouse effect.
Carbon dioxide concentration has been continually rising for nearly 100 years. It continues to rise, but carbon dioxide concentrations at present are near the lowest in geologic history.
Temperature change correlation with carbon dioxide levels is not statistically significant.
There are no data that definitively relate carbon dioxide levels to temperature changes.
The greenhouse effect of carbon dioxide logarithmically declines with increasing concentration. At present levels, any additional carbon dioxide can have very little effect.
We also know a lot about Earth temperature changes:
Global temperature changes naturally all of the time, in both directions and at many scales of intensity.
The warmest year in the U.S. in the last century was 1934, not 1998. The U.S. has the best and most extensive temperature records in the world.
Global temperature peaked in 1998 on the current 60-80 year cycle, and has been episodically declining ever since. This cooling absolutely falsifies claims that human carbon dioxide emissions are a controlling factor in Earth temperature.
Voluminous historic records demonstrate the Medieval Climate Optimum (MCO) was real and that the "hockey stick" graphic that attempted to deny that fact was at best bad science. The MCO was considerably warmer than the end of the 20th century.
During the last 100 years, temperature has both risen and fallen, including the present cooling. All the changes in temperature of the last 100 years are in normal historic ranges, both in absolute value and, most importantly, rate of change.
Contrary to many public statements:
Effects of temperature change are absolutely independent of the cause of the temperature change.
Global hurricane, cyclonic and major storm activity is near 30-year lows. Any increase in cost of damages by storms is a product of increasing population density in vulnerable areas such as along the shores and property value inflation, not due to any increase in frequency or severity of storms.
Polar bears have survived and thrived over periods of extreme cold and extreme warmth over hundreds of thousands of years extremes far in excess of modern temperature changes.
The 2009 minimum Arctic ice extent was significantly larger than the previous two years. The 2009 Antarctic maximum ice extent was significantly above the 30-year average. There are only 30 years of records.
Rate and magnitude of sea level changes observed during the last 100 years are within normal historical ranges. Current sea level rise is tiny and, at most, justifies a prediction of perhaps ten centimeters rise in this century.
The present climate debate is a classic conflict between data and computer programs. The computer programs are the source of concern over climate change and global warming, not the data. Data are measurements. Computer programs are artificial constructs.
Public announcements use a great deal of hyperbole and inflammatory language. For instance, the word "ever" is misused by media and in public pronouncements alike. It does not mean "in the last 20 years," or "the last 70 years." "Ever" means the last 4.5 billion years.
For example, some argue that the Arctic is melting, with the warmest-ever temperatures. One should ask, "How long is ever?" The answer is since 1979. And then ask, "Is it still warming?" The answer is unequivocally "No." Earth temperatures are cooling. Similarly, the word "unprecedented" cannot be legitimately used to describe any climate change in the last 8,000 years.
From Powerline.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
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AGW -- government, corporations all coming together to control you, all in the name of the latest fascist ploy "being green!"
The enviros are just another form of the brownshirts.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
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TO THE VICTORS CRONIES GO THE SPOILS: HHS Hands Out 204 New ObamaCare Waivers.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
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WHY IS IT THAT SOCIALISTS ALWAYS SEEM TO LIVE NICE LIFESTYLES?
ROGER SIMON: IMF Head Strauss-Kahn: A Teachable Moment For The French? A supposed leftist and one-time student communist, he lived the most extravagant personal lifestyle replete with three thousand dollar hotel suites, thirty-five thousand dollar suits (Strauss-Kahn is suing over this allegation by France Soir but what if theyre only twenty thousand?), unlimited first class seats on Air France, Porsches, etc.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
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Solar and wind power -- another massive scam.
Drive to Palm Springs and see the wind power boondoggle in action -- and they look like crap too.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
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AGW -- THE BIGGEST SOCIALIST SCAM IN HISTORY:
The most effective greenhouse gas is water vapor, comprising approximately 95 percent of the total greenhouse effect.
Carbon dioxide concentration has been continually rising for nearly 100 years. It continues to rise, but carbon dioxide concentrations at present are near the lowest in geologic history.
Temperature change correlation with carbon dioxide levels is not statistically significant.
There are no data that definitively relate carbon dioxide levels to temperature changes.
The greenhouse effect of carbon dioxide logarithmically declines with increasing concentration. At present levels, any additional carbon dioxide can have very little effect.
We also know a lot about Earth temperature changes:
Global temperature changes naturally all of the time, in both directions and at many scales of intensity.
The warmest year in the U.S. in the last century was 1934, not 1998. The U.S. has the best and most extensive temperature records in the world.
Global temperature peaked in 1998 on the current 60-80 year cycle, and has been episodically declining ever since. This cooling absolutely falsifies claims that human carbon dioxide emissions are a controlling factor in Earth temperature.
Voluminous historic records demonstrate the Medieval Climate Optimum (MCO) was real and that the "hockey stick" graphic that attempted to deny that fact was at best bad science. The MCO was considerably warmer than the end of the 20th century.
During the last 100 years, temperature has both risen and fallen, including the present cooling. All the changes in temperature of the last 100 years are in normal historic ranges, both in absolute value and, most importantly, rate of change.
Contrary to many public statements:
Effects of temperature change are absolutely independent of the cause of the temperature change.
Global hurricane, cyclonic and major storm activity is near 30-year lows. Any increase in cost of damages by storms is a product of increasing population density in vulnerable areas such as along the shores and property value inflation, not due to any increase in frequency or severity of storms.
Polar bears have survived and thrived over periods of extreme cold and extreme warmth over hundreds of thousands of years extremes far in excess of modern temperature changes.
The 2009 minimum Arctic ice extent was significantly larger than the previous two years. The 2009 Antarctic maximum ice extent was significantly above the 30-year average. There are only 30 years of records.
Rate and magnitude of sea level changes observed during the last 100 years are within normal historical ranges. Current sea level rise is tiny and, at most, justifies a prediction of perhaps ten centimeters rise in this century.
The present climate debate is a classic conflict between data and computer programs. The computer programs are the source of concern over climate change and global warming, not the data. Data are measurements. Computer programs are artificial constructs.
Public announcements use a great deal of hyperbole and inflammatory language. For instance, the word "ever" is misused by media and in public pronouncements alike. It does not mean "in the last 20 years," or "the last 70 years." "Ever" means the last 4.5 billion years.
For example, some argue that the Arctic is melting, with the warmest-ever temperatures. One should ask, "How long is ever?" The answer is since 1979. And then ask, "Is it still warming?" The answer is unequivocally "No." Earth temperatures are cooling. Similarly, the word "unprecedented" cannot be legitimately used to describe any climate change in the last 8,000 years.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 16, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
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Chief when the come out with an electric version I'll get one. And that's the point. Why would they even be working on an electric one if there wasn't concern about the environment. It's not hypocrisy. The Earth can absorb some amount of impact without significant environmental impact. Steps to reduce your impact to try to get to that level aren't hypocrisy, it's just trying to be a good steward of the earth.
I'll admit that if everyone on earth had the impact I do it would be too much in the long term, but like I said who knows what the future holds. I'll do what I like, to a reasonable extent, and try to reduce my impacts as much as reasonably possible.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 12:18pm PT
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Never ever forget.
The goal of the "progressives" is government control over the individual, all in the name of "social justice" or environmentalism.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 16, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
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Does SUAP spam every thread like this?
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
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Remember a few weeks ago Osama bin Laden complaining about global warming? Gee -- I wonder where he got that crap?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 16, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
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Never ever forget.
The goal of the "conservatives" is government control over the individual, all in the name of "morality".
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 16, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
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Nicely put hartouni... The question i have for the hysterical climate change deniers is why are they so fearful about climate change information and research..? That's like getting your panties in a bunch over research that proves cigarette smoking causes lung cancer...Even if climate change is a hoax , is there something wrong with cutting down on the amounts of carcinogens that we breath...? How can the economy be damaged by controlling emissions when the economy is already damaged.....Lots of baseless arguments coming from the deniers side...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 16, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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I agree with The Chief in that the earth will respond to this independently of our ideology, but I disagree with his view that this should be let to happen, and that we should just live through the consequences, especially if doing otherwise would appear to infringe on our "personal liberties." Our choices are not independent in any aspects of our lives, we live in a society that essentially dictates many of the choices... go out and try to buy a 60 mpg vehicle, certainly technically possible, but such a product does not exist.
Thanks, Ed. That, in a nutshell, is what the debate should really be about. Should we do something about this, and what should we do? As you recognize, there is no choice that preserves everyone's personal liberties, because anyone's unfettered exercise of his or her personal liberties restricts those of others.
That's where politics and economics come in, and there's plenty of room for informed debate there. In that debate, the idea that human activity has no effect on the earth's condition, including its climate, faces overwhelming contradiction from scientific observation and study. It's possible, but so unlikely that I consider it foolish to ignore in the same way that I consider it foolish to jump out of an airplane without a parachute and expect to live. People have done it, but it's a very stupid bet.
John
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
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Every liberal solution? Government control. Why?
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 16, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
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YEAH -- WE ARE JUST "DENYING CLIMATE CHANGE" BASED ON NO FACTS:
In the wake of Climategate, common sense deniers like to say that there is lots of other evidence for global warming, in addition to that which has been debunked by the East Anglia whistleblower. Actually, however, the scientific evidence for AGW is remarkably weak. At Icecap, Lee Gerhard, geologist and reviewer for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, sums up the key scientific evidence with admirable brevity:
It is crucial that scientists are factually accurate when they do speak out, that they ignore media hype and maintain a clinical detachment from social or other agendas. There are facts and data that are ignored in the maelstrom of social and economic agendas swirling about Copenhagen. Greenhouse gases and their effects are well-known. Here are some of things we know:
The most effective greenhouse gas is water vapor, comprising approximately 95 percent of the total greenhouse effect.
Carbon dioxide concentration has been continually rising for nearly 100 years. It continues to rise, but carbon dioxide concentrations at present are near the lowest in geologic history.
Temperature change correlation with carbon dioxide levels is not statistically significant.
There are no data that definitively relate carbon dioxide levels to temperature changes.
The greenhouse effect of carbon dioxide logarithmically declines with increasing concentration. At present levels, any additional carbon dioxide can have very little effect.
We also know a lot about Earth temperature changes:
Global temperature changes naturally all of the time, in both directions and at many scales of intensity.
The warmest year in the U.S. in the last century was 1934, not 1998. The U.S. has the best and most extensive temperature records in the world.
Global temperature peaked in 1998 on the current 60-80 year cycle, and has been episodically declining ever since. This cooling absolutely falsifies claims that human carbon dioxide emissions are a controlling factor in Earth temperature.
Voluminous historic records demonstrate the Medieval Climate Optimum (MCO) was real and that the "hockey stick" graphic that attempted to deny that fact was at best bad science. The MCO was considerably warmer than the end of the 20th century.
During the last 100 years, temperature has both risen and fallen, including the present cooling. All the changes in temperature of the last 100 years are in normal historic ranges, both in absolute value and, most importantly, rate of change.
Contrary to many public statements:
Effects of temperature change are absolutely independent of the cause of the temperature change.
Global hurricane, cyclonic and major storm activity is near 30-year lows. Any increase in cost of damages by storms is a product of increasing population density in vulnerable areas such as along the shores and property value inflation, not due to any increase in frequency or severity of storms.
Polar bears have survived and thrived over periods of extreme cold and extreme warmth over hundreds of thousands of years extremes far in excess of modern temperature changes.
The 2009 minimum Arctic ice extent was significantly larger than the previous two years. The 2009 Antarctic maximum ice extent was significantly above the 30-year average. There are only 30 years of records.
Rate and magnitude of sea level changes observed during the last 100 years are within normal historical ranges. Current sea level rise is tiny and, at most, justifies a prediction of perhaps ten centimeters rise in this century.
The present climate debate is a classic conflict between data and computer programs. The computer programs are the source of concern over climate change and global warming, not the data. Data are measurements. Computer programs are artificial constructs.
Public announcements use a great deal of hyperbole and inflammatory language. For instance, the word "ever" is misused by media and in public pronouncements alike. It does not mean "in the last 20 years," or "the last 70 years." "Ever" means the last 4.5 billion years.
For example, some argue that the Arctic is melting, with the warmest-ever temperatures. One should ask, "How long is ever?" The answer is since 1979. And then ask, "Is it still warming?" The answer is unequivocally "No." Earth temperatures are cooling. Similarly, the word "unprecedented" cannot be legitimately used to describe any climate change in the last 8,000 years.
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