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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:05am PT
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You seem to have caught on quite well. Did you notice that the guy was bitten by a REAL snake?
I didn't miss your point, that doesn't make it special.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:09am PT
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Joe (jghedge),
> Well we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
That works for me if that's how it turns out. I know you have done lots of FAs and I'm sure you've thought about this stuff, so I'm not really expecting you to change your mind. It's more like I wanted to understand the reasons that are important to you. At least you are friendly about disagreeing!
> To me rap bolting is rap bolting, and to say it's ok if you do it because of some specious line of reasoning, but not ok for anyone else (based on a slightly different but equally specious line of reasoning), just doesn't cut it.
Well, to convince me, you will have to explain what is specious about my line(s) of reasoning.
> Your line of reasoning strikes me as an inadvertent tacit admission that the ground-up FA was botched if it has to be fixed with rap bolting.
I prefer to use the word "botched" for when the bolts are in the wrong places (although "wrong places" can be a judgement call, of course). I agree the guys who place 1/4" from stance and then go down immediately and replace with 3/8" on rappel are admitting their 1/4" were not good enough to leave for later parties. But the 1/4" were good enough to protect the lead on the FA. They drilled 1/4" on lead because it was easier, or maybe they were convinced they could not stick on the stance long enough to get the 3/8" started. This technique allows them to get their ground-up / onsight FA adventure, and the immediate rebolting part makes the route more acceptable for later ascents.
> I tend to think that someone who truly believed in ground-up ethics and actually had the courage of their convictions would never think of rap bolting a route that supposedly represents a high water mark in ground-up ethics.
If the rebolters do their work well after the FA, sure, they could rebolt it on lead if they want to. The rebolting does not delete the adventure that was had on the FA. It also does not change the bolt locations (if done correctly). So the rebolting is really just preserving the bolt locations from the FA while upgrading the hardware. This is different from rap bolting the FA, where the locations are determined after inspection and/or toproping, and the adventure of onsighting and bolting on lead is missing. (This does not imply there is no adventure to be had in the FA redpoint; it can be like redpointing an existing route, though).
> Obviously rap bolting is easier and more convenient than drilling on the lead, and is the logical way to replace old bolts.
Agreed on both counts there. (Unless there are people who want that adventure of on lead rebolting, then it would not be logical for them).
> But you guys want to pretend and convince others that that same logic doesn't apply to new bolts (routes) too - sorry but it does.
Rap bolting new bolts on the FA is logical if you are not interested in the aspects that make the ground-up FA different from the FA redpoint. If you get no charge from the adventure of bolting on lead, then rap bolting is more logical. If you don't trust choosing bolt locations on lead from an onsight perspective, then rap bolting is more logical. But if these 2 things are of interest, then you have to make a judgement about whether they are worth the (usually) extra effort.
> You can have your cake, or you can eat it - not both.
Well, apparently I can have both, as I have placed bolts on lead and also replaced on rappel. I have also placed FA bolts on rappel. I'm sure you have done all these things as well. I prefer to place FA bolts on lead, unless I don't think I can get them in, or if it doesn't look like much of an adventure, relative to time spent. It is pretty much essential to have a parnter who is psyched for the ground-up style as well, or have the route easy enough to belay with a Silent Partner. Sometimes I leave the potential new route alone, if it looks too hard for me to get the bolts in on lead. I do try to limit the number of bolts I place, although I don't have any special formula for that.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:14am PT
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Uhhh... he WAS? A REAL snake? Oh, crap, I'm an idiot! THAT fact changes everything about what I was sarcastically saying to make a completely unrelated and much more generally applicable and sweeping point! A REAL snake, you say?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:22am PT
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Richard,
> How much worse would this thread have gone for Doug and Sean had they lacked a Valley reputation at the time of GU? They got a lot of heat here as it is!
Good point. I was thinking of posting the same thing myself, some days ago, but I wasn't sure if enough people knew the Wings of Steel story to understand the reference.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:27am PT
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Are you kidding? The WoS threads were "the shit" BITD™...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:27am PT
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MadB,
You have so elevated your status and shown us the light....
Has anyone ever called you an A**hole?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:39am PT
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Yeah, Clint. Same old crap, different decade.
So, Sean and Doug didn't have the maximum possible "adventure" on GU... so what? Their call. Who are we to say they did something "wrong" or even "not stylish" by not having the maximum possible adventure?
The maximum climbing adventure is nude, barefoot (if that doesn't go without saying) free-soloing of a route you will ALMOST certainly die on. Anything other than this is just various tactics on a grand continuum of "adventure." Only egotistical elitists attempt to impose their particular preferred point of the continuum as THE requisite minimum level of "adventure" below which people must be chastised, slandered, or punished.
It's pathetic, really.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:40am PT
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Get in line, survival. It's old news in some circles. lol
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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Hope you have a quick and easy recovery Sean!
-Snakes in a crack brrrrrr- not a pleasant thought, I once pulled up over an edge on lead to get rattled at- right in the face. Almost 30 years later (that was spring 1977) it still makes me go brrrrr. I happened about 20 min. before a rope broke on a kid while rapplling in a fairly remote area and he augered in (I think they were from Walla Walla too Madbolter). We splinted and carried the unconscious and bloody kid out in a rope stretcher we made for the occasion and got him to the hospital stat, thank the lord for cell phones now.
__
Richard Jensen, I didn't get your references at all, thought those first posts you did were in poor form, you can always reread what you wrote and remove them if you re-evaluate and decide how stupid and off topic you sound. The later ones stand on their own and are a nice contribution.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:48pm PT
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Aghhhh....that bite story makes my toes curl!! Don't know much about these things but I would think that the hand is a very bad place to get bit due to the blood supply there. I know that if I accidently stick a needle with a virus in myself it shouldn't be in the hand (that's what they tell me at least.) Last year I shared a crack in Yosemite with a king snake...luck of the draw I guess.
-JR
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:51pm PT
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Good morning Tacos,
I talked to Sean this morning and he is good spirits.
His bite was a best case scenario in that only
(1) fang penetrated his right hand index finger.
Sean said the doctors don't seem very concerned
and wasn't sure if that was a good thing or not.
He is taking this very serious of course and
is waiting to see the doctor again this morning.
The boulder he was on was about 12' or so tall. He said he
was showing Guy Yager where the jugs were for the top out moves on the problem (pre inspection). When reaching over the top to find and chalk up (tick) a big positive hueco he felt the bite. At first he thought it was a bee sting or something. Then he pulled over the top and went face to face with the little bugger. After realizing it was a rattler Sean blindly jumped off landing on bouldering pads and luckily missing the kids at the base. Following his crash landing he said regretfully, "there was a whole lot of cursing in front of the kids" which he described in detail. Next Sean requested his knife from his pack and sliced his finger open and let it bleed and then soaked it in the Merced. Once they were all back in town friends convinced Sean to call 911 and get medical attention. From what I understand any snake bite in Yosemite qualifies you for a helicopter ride. So Sean was now in the air and (go figure) he scoped out some nice crags he hadn't seen before.
Sean has great insurance so no problem there.
He is in room 217 in Sornora hospital with Maggie by his side.
Get well soon bro!
Blair.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
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i think it's kind of ironic that madbolter1 wants to compare this route to WoS.
what if these guys had drilled up the upper wall on lead, but to do so they had chipped (even slightly) some percentage of their hook placememnts, and the route they left didn't see another ascent. wouldn't we then have a more analagous situation?
alternatively, was it 'worth it' for these guys to 'sacrafice their adventure' in order to leave a route that someone might actually want to go climb?
geuss what, you don't see a lot of scary hooking aid routes ([edit]broken up only by drilled placements) up the SFoHD, wanna know why?
who says there is limited route potential up there?
what a farce, the precident has been set!
i say let's get a couple of guys w/out a single yosemite big wall under their belt to go up there and seige an unclimbed blank-ish section of this thing, following a line entirely absent in natural features, have them leave the deck with exactly the same hardware the WoS team had, and let's have them camp on the wall for a month, then we'll see how everyone (climbers, NPS, tourists, rope shitters, etc) reacts, then perhaps we can actually make some valid comparisons!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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Matt, if you think I'm comparing routes, you have, in your typical anti-WoS-at-any-cost fashion, missed yet another point. This thread has nothing to do with WoS, nor was my comparison between WoS and GU (although I did know that certain herd members, such as you, would blindly rise to the bait). There's a lot of irony to go around, none of it where you put it. Why don't you get over WoS as a route (a route comparison YOU have mentioned several times on this thread so far) and expand your mind to contemplate a bigger picture?
Same old crap. Different decade. (Many of the same old herd members mooing the same old refrain.)
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:15pm PT
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Sean, sorry to hear about the snake bite, that sucks. Those bolders along the merced always felt pretty snaky to me when Jamie took me on his little tour. My friend Jon got bit on the hand too, hope you get off cheaper than he did.
Also, bad form knott using the kids to break your fall. That's why you bring em along, don't you know. :)
Anyway, use that 800# I gave you and call me, you should have plenty of time sitting in the hospy.
L8,
Pasha
P.S. FWIW, Sean Jones loves him some Rob Halford and will blast that sh#t at ear shattering levels at 1am while barrelling thru Death Valley at 80 mph in Kauk's old POS van.
True story.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
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"Same old crap. Different decade."
no sh#t rich.
and while i might be trying to see whatever self exonerating point you think you are making in the dozen posts you have made in this thread, all of them unrelated to the climb itself, as always, that huge chip on your shoulder is again blocking my view.
btw- if these guys could have just borrowed your trusty chisel, perhaps the slab would have seemed more reasonable on lead, and growing up coulda gone up ground up, and we'd all be 1700+posts poorer for it!
(now back OT, would chipping to hook to drill on lead on a free route be a question of style, or a question of ethics? i find it all very confusing! =)
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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Also, I just wanted to say how glad I am that I live, climb, and develop routes in bumf*#k Idaho, where nobody gives a sh#t what, where, or how I put something up.
Hi Mojede!!!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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Blair,
Thanks for the update. Definitely scary to have the face-to-face staredown and realize you were bitten, then jump blindly off! Glad to hear it's not worse. Hopefully problems with swelling, infection and necrosis will be avoided.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
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Hey cuz, it goin' well? Good comment about the kids taking the boulder fall-walking crash pads, I tell ya.
Matt, Ethic-deciding TO bring tools (hammer,chisel, drill) for the climb, Style-deciding on how and what to DO with said tools.
.....or not. :)
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:33pm PT
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Yeah cuz, all good here. The winter that won't end could fricken end already, been good sliding conditions for sure.
Built a woodie upstairs of the shop, been training like mad for the last 6 weeks, amazing how much you can change in that amount of time.
I think I can (maybe) send those V2's I flailed on last summer now.
OT, saw that the Paradise Valley was featured in the last Outside Magazine. Let me tell you how how well that worked out for North Idaho. Enjoy it while it lasted.
When's that batholith gig going down?
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