Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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Chiloe

Trad climber

Lee, NH

Dec 17, 2014 - 07:20pm PT

Random notes from AGU today ... one highlight was Peter deMenocal (Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory) presenting the Emiliani Lecture, which honors a founder of paleoceanography. DeMenocal's topic, "Climate and Life: A Human Retrospective" described research linking large-scale climatic shifts with changes in human evolution and culture. Specifically,
1) Orbital climate cycles that shifted 2.8 and 1.8 million years ago established the African savannah, which coincided with major steps in hominin evolution (both extinction and branching) and behavioral change (new tools, less specialized diets);
2) Between 15-5 thousand years ago what is now the Sahara had wooded plains and lakes supported by orbitally-driven increases in rainfall. When the wet period ended the region was depopulated, and settlements grew instead along the Nile River which had more permanent water. Within a few centuries we see the first pyramids, kings, and hierogpyhs.

DeMenocal concluded

As these diverse lines of evidence come together, it appears as if an answer to the age-old question “How did I get here?” is no longer beyond our reach. Climate has played an important role in our past, and a current far greater challenge is to understand our future.

Chiloe

Trad climber

Lee, NH

Dec 17, 2014 - 07:34pm PT

You got to go with the times.

reads the opening line of the best rock climbing story ever writ, Robin Smith's "The Bat and the Wicked." In my imagination it's in a class with other famous first sentences like

Call me Ishmael.

A screaming comes across the sky.

But anyway ... AGU too has got to go with the times. The meeting day wrapped up for me with a "Social Media Forum," a fascinating panel discussion about scientists and science journalists using Twitter, etc. First thing I learned was that the meeting hashtag, #AGU14, was used in 41,000 individual tweets making 60 million impressions over the last few days. I think I've read ten of them so clearly I have not yet gone with the times. In case science tweeting sounds frivolous, the panelists made clear with many examples why it is not. Their examples also showed (those of us who are clueless) some of the different ways to use it, why you'd want to, and what to watch out for.

Someone from the audience asked about LinkedIn and the panelists looked at one another as if trying not to laugh.

raymond phule

climber

Dec 18, 2014 - 08:51am PT

NWO2, I still don't understand what you are trying to say.

You give links to discussions about future possibilities of climate engineering.

and you show pictures of easily explained natural phenomena that includes airplanes and can be found all over the world in the right weather conditions.

So what is your point?

Do you try to prove that it exist a world wide conspiracy that use commercial airplanes to spray chemicals (except the engine exhaust) into the air?

Do you try to prove that geo-engineering is in use today?

raymond phule

climber

Dec 18, 2014 - 08:59am PT

You can bet, within a few hours of this pic being taken, the entire sky appeared a milky white haze. Why is that? Don't jet contrails disappear within 15 minutes? Contrails are ice crystals. When you exhale on a cold day, can you still see your breath minutes later?

LOL, why don't the people that understand the atmosphere came to the same conclusion as you do? Strange. One possibility is that they know that the two cases are not the same. Another possibility is that is a world wide conspiracy among all people educated in atmospheric physics.

I guess that you could read about pressure, dew point, relative and absolute humidity, dissipation, particles needed for ice crystals to form or you could of course just put on your foil hat.

raymond phule

climber

Dec 18, 2014 - 09:21am PT

I ask, why is it one day you will not see a single jet contrail remaining in the sky after a jet has passed, then on another (exact same temperature day) you will see the sky appear the milky white haze (as in the pic above) ?

The difference is in the humidity and other parameters at altitude were the airplanes fly. The temperature at ground doesn't matter.

Do you understand why high altitude clouds exist on some days and that none exist on other days? Have you ever looked at the sky during the time of a approaching warm front?

raymond phule

climber

Dec 18, 2014 - 09:52am PT

Guys, they have been spraying chemicals into the atmosphere for quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratospheric_sulfate_aerosols_%28geoengineering%29

Exactly were in that link do they say that "they have been spraying chemicals into the atmosphere for quite some time."?

You really don't seem to be able to understand past, present and future, and the possibility to do something and to actually doing something.

Raymond, last summer we had a weeks worth of hot, not a cloud in the sky days. I saw so-called jet contrails evaporate mere minutes after a jets passing. Other days, they remained and went on to expand, creating a milky white haze. Again, all conditions considered, this weeks worth of weather was almost exactly the same. I doubt "the humidity and other parameters at altitude were that different in this particular week?

The answer is that you have no idea about the possibly difference atmospheric condition at the relevant altitude. You just doubt without seeming to have any understanding of the relevant physics at play.

High altitude clouds and thus the conditions for the formation of lasting contrails can change very fast and often even though the weather at ground level is more or less constant.

But it is clear that you believe that a phenomena that can be found all over the world and that involved all commercial airplanes so that all airplanes on a single day can do the spraying is happening.

How many thousands of people are involved in that conspiracy? And I don't even believe that a single one of those involved have came out with the truth.

WBraun

climber

Dec 18, 2014 - 10:09am PT

they're doing a piss poor job of the slow kill.

Not true,

Look around,

You'll find most people already dead even though they look alive ......

McHale's Navy

Trad climber

From Panorama City, CA

Dec 18, 2014 - 10:15am PT

And now there is an economic oil war going just when we should be thinking of conserving oil. This does not give me confidence! It's shameful. It's like a last gasp.

McHale's Navy

Trad climber

From Panorama City, CA

Dec 18, 2014 - 10:27am PT

Its what its all built on, every last red cent including the ones to pay for these electrons to be rendered on your screen.

Every last red f*#king cent.

DMT

Therein lies the problem! And there are a number of fronts to the war, another of which would be to curtail alternative energies.

The other stupid thing going on is the drop in tax revenue with the price of oil. These taxes should be propped up. It's proven people are willing to pay. @#%$^&*!

raymond phule

climber

Dec 18, 2014 - 10:30am PT

The very pic (below) from The Royal Society tells me they are spraying chems.

I believe that we are getting same were. That you actually understand that your link didn't say what you said it did.

About the pic you show. You can always look at the caption for some further understanding.

Does it not concern you Raymond, just the very fact they are discussing doing it, may be an indicator that they already are, or plan to? You don't just one day start spraying. The people would freak out. You introduce it slowly, like every other slow-kill method they implement.

LOL, scientist are discussing a lot of things that they are probably never doing to do and that they even cant do at the moment. About the last part of the quote. Do many of the links that you provide discuss possibly ways to slowly kill people or do they discuss something else?

No....not "all commercial airlines". Specific military and contracted (Lockheed-Martin) aircraft.

Interesting. I have seen long lasting contrails that the conspiracy people call chemtrails after all kinds of airplanes. So how do I see the difference from a fake chemtrail from an ordinary commercial jet (that cant exist according to you even though it does) and a chemtrail from those military airplanes? How many of those military airplanes exist anyway? A couple of thousands I guess.

What is it exactly do you think this aircraft (below) does? It sprays chemicals into the atmosphere.

I have no idea what kind of vehicle that thing is or what it does. Do you say that that is the "aircraft" that sprays chemicals at high altitude at a speed of 850 km/h?

This became more and more confusing.

raymond phule

climber

Dec 18, 2014 - 10:37am PT

NWO2, why do you show pictures of the experimental airship Lockheed Martin P-791? Do you believe that that thing is full of nasty slowly killing chemicals that is sprayed all over the world and that it flies with a couple of fans and very small wings?

WBraun

climber

Dec 18, 2014 - 10:57am PT

Will you your RFID implant in your head, hand or adze?

Oh cry us a river.

I already have an advanced RFID implanted in my head and the "Master" is speaking thru me to you stooopid earthlings.

Just see the advanced intelligence beaming thru ......

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Dec 18, 2014 - 10:57am PT

I trust you refer to the azzhole at 49.25 degrees north and not 62 north, DMT.

Some observations for Moose: quite a lot of energy is developed by a moose flying through your windshield and into your lap at sixty mph-they don't call them the most dangerous animals in NA for nothing. How do you get that energy down to Earth; microwaves or giant cords-if its the former, it has serious atmospheruc effects.

We already have the on the shelf technology and available resources to reduce manmade ghg's to a non problem-at least a two hundred year supply of gas and methane (produces 50% less co2 than coal or oil) and the latest generation nuclear reactors. If CAGW was the real problem and intent to correct this "problem" was the real goal, it would already have been well down the path to a fix.

McHale's Navy

Trad climber

From Panorama City, CA

Dec 18, 2014 - 11:09am PT

We're on the path. A little faster action would be good but things always change rather slowly. Clearly, the oil habit will be near impossible to break.....sadly

Most assuredly the rest of the easily and not-so-easily available oil is going to be extracted and burned. You and I will play our part in it. So will the chief, Werner and that sanctimonious as#@&%e up north.

I will also play my part in supporting alternatives.

raymond phule

climber

Dec 18, 2014 - 11:19am PT

Can you address the Royal Society report?

What should I address? Should I read maybe 100 pages of scientific reports and discuss it with you when it is clear that you draw the wrong conclusions from reading 20 lines in wikipedia?

About the rest. I really cant think like a conspiracy theorist to be able to understand your view about how to best slowly kill the people. In real world is it the most common that new methods is first discussed and analyzed before telling the people.

I neither have said anything about geo-enginnering in general and I would have no problem in believing that it happens if it actually happened.

The thing that I have discussed is the completely ridiculous chemtrail conspiracy theory that you believe in and that it shows that geo-enginnering is in use today.

It is ridiculous because the prof (the chemtrails) of it goes against basic well known knowledge about the atmosphere and that the logistic would involved thousands of people and/or make absolutely no sense.

McHale's Navy

Trad climber

From Panorama City, CA

Dec 18, 2014 - 11:30am PT

Oil going into a solar panel is better than the oil just going up into the atmosphere. You knew that!

OK, I'm outta here for now......but I hear you, seems pretty hopeless but I have my CH80 Honda scooter to make myself feel better, and those solar panels on the roof, and......I even have an electric bicycle - talk about fun! It can't stack against Chief's ride though!

Edit: I see more and more electric bicycles in Seattle. The people riding them are clearly getting a buzz. Been there done that!

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Dec 18, 2014 - 11:56am PT

Some of it makes sense, much of the rest not Moose. Solar hot water heating gets some real bang for the buck, grid scale solar and wind does not because of the intermittancy, hours without sunlight, and lack of effective storage. If Elon Musk gets his way much more electricity will be fed into the grid via home arrays and storage could be decentralized to millions of home battery banks and cars. Still need ulility grade FF, hydro, or nuclear plants for frequent and inefficient shortfalls though. The Japanese are also working on the first production wells of methane hydrates, present in huge quantities along the continental shelfs, deep sea beds, and permafrost worldwide. Between this store and shale gas we have hundreds of years of supply.