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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2014 - 09:56am PT
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... this CAGW bullshet.
Only if you deny the science can you say that human-induced climate change is bullshet.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 10:02am PT
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I'll emphasize that: even if we are 100% sure that the science tells us this is going to be a problem,
Well we aren't.
DMT
perhaps you missed the point, which is that even if it was, you'd choose to advocate that we don't do anything about it... which is the choice you'd make based on your correct analysis of the game...
you can take the New England fishing industry as an example... as the cod were depleted out of the western N. Atlantic, they resisted the attempts to regulate the catch quotas, claiming, as you do now, that the science wasn't "100%" certain. They made a case based on their "experience" and "expertise" that the situation was not on the verge of collapse.
They also took their self interest as their guiding principle. This is not quite the same "game" as the one I posted above, but a variant of it.
In the end, the fishery collapsed because of resistance to the idea of significant regulation and reduced access to the resource. What the fishermen feared would happen by regulation, happened instead by their insisting on being able to do what they had always done. They had been acting in their "self interest," unfortunately for them those actions caused the demise of their livelihood. An interesting lesson, and pertinent to the discussion of the use of the atmosphere for dumping CO2 exhaust resulting from energy production.
If you thought, as a New England fisherman, that science and technology would save your livelihood, you were misguided. It is true that technological innovation made fishing much more efficient. However, the most important science was ignored, and that was the science explaining what was happening to the fish populations. Investing in better fishing technology is expensive, and the costs are paid by the size of the catch. When the science was saying that a reduced catch was necessary to sustain the fishery, the fishermen were in a bind, larger catches were necessary to sustain their investments.
To make it personal, DMT (for example) has invested in his livelihood and no matter what climate science has to say about it, he's loath to give up on that investment. It is not in his self interest to do so. We're all in the same boat on that point.
The debate over the science is somewhat of a side issue at this point, sort of like the New England fishermen claiming that "everything's gonna be alright" in the face of overwhelming science that said the fishery was not going to recover. The fishermen were looking for an optimistic outcome "in the gaps" of scientific certainty. It didn't happen.
Once again, the point here is that we are proceeding to deal with the climate in exactly the same way, though with larger consequences. I think DMT's position is justifiable, I also think the consequences will be the same as the other examples of the "tragedy of the commons," that is, tragic.
Science, in those tragedies, had (and has) been given the role of Cassandra.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 10:28am PT
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I'm not advocating anything. I'm explaining something to you.
DMT
and I believe I understand what it is you are explaining... but as you so pointedly observe, when one is "explaining" something, there are those in the audience that interpret it as "advocacy," they might even accuse the explainer of being "a clown."
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2014 - 10:30am PT
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Seriously appears you are denying the reality that the world in general isn't buying into your false CAGW ideology Kman.
The Chief, you are twisting my point and my words to fit your agenda.
I'm happy that this approach floats your boat, but to me it means that you are not attempting to have a rational conversation.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2014 - 10:52am PT
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You and your friends here have repeatedly shown that the only way to achieve any "rational conversation" is to surrender to and then agree with your stance/ideology. Otherwise the conversation is not a worthy one in terms of being rational.
This is so far from the truth that the only response it deserves is one that calls out the fallacy of the argument.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Dec 12, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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So far you've explained that you have a high carbon lifestyle & you don't believe the science.
My view is that the former causes the latter.
Maybe your view is right, but it's just a guess.
Those of us who point out that there's something fishy in that people like Al Gore and Bono have an ultra-high carbon lifestyle (we can only guess as to how many orders of magnitude greater than the lifestyle of any ST poster) but also allegedly "believe the science" -- we're roundly mocked for, uh, I'm not sure, but we're roundly mocked for something!
To simplify: leading an ultra-high carbon lifestyle (let's say at least being a 1%er) is completely consistent with being a climate change doom-and-gloomer activist, so there does not seem to be any basis for your expressed view.
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Stevee B
Trad climber
Oakland, CA
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Dec 12, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
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FWIW, "CAGW" isn't a valid concept in the first place, it's a climate science denier perjorative intended to cloud the issue.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Dec 12, 2014 - 04:27pm PT
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Careful, Ahura. Excrement pics are The Chief's domain.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 12, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
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If it did happen it would be great!
I'd own beachfront property!
in the meantime;
http://www.thepiratescove.us/2014/12/12/if-all-you-see-1341/
Then speaking of dicks and turds, the Greenpeas Environazis engaged in this bit of vandalism.
No, that's not Photoshopped!
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Dec 12, 2014 - 07:50pm PT
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There is no pause in overall heat imbalance.
Global warming continues despite continuous denial.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-continues-despite-continuous-denial.html
http://reports.ncse.com/index.php/rncse/article/view/332/583
excerpt:
In order to measure how fast the planet is heating, we can measure the difference in incoming and outgoing energy at the top of the atmosphere (just like keeping track of a bank account by comparing deposits to withdrawals). Another way to measure a warming planet is to simply to measure how much energy is stored within the planet’s climate (like watching the balance of a bank account). Both methods should give the same answer. If you have more deposits than withdrawals to a bank account, you will see your balance increase.
Fortunately both of these methods, when used by climate scientists, tell the same story. The Earth is out of balance; we are gaining 0.5 – 1 Watts per square meter of area.
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 13, 2014 - 03:16am PT
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The Chief wrote:
ISIS in NOT a theory. At least it isn't to the over 30K that have been slaughtered in the past year by them it isn't.
Citation for that number? Every death at the hands of ISIS is clearly tragic, but the UN report estimates around 8000 killed and 22000 injured. A 3-fold exaggeration on your part.
You're part of a group on this forum that keeps ginning up the hysteria to what amounts to a regional threat and not at all a serious threat to the US or the rest of the world.
To use your past argument and reasoning,far more people die in car accidents or due to cancer per year in the US than at the hands of ISIS. Your hysteria about ISIS is in the exact same vein as the hysteria you criticize regarding AGW.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 13, 2014 - 08:43am PT
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you gotta hand it them.... they got your attention!
So would spray painting the side of El Cap.
Vandals!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2014 - 09:23am PT
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actually, when you read the NYTimes report on the Peruvian complaints, it wasn't just about the cloth letters... it's about walking on the soil and changing the surface...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/13/world/americas/peru-is-indignant-after-greenpeace-makes-its-mark-on-ancient-site.html
interestingly, climbers do a similar thing when they climb routes, leaving quite clear paths on the rock surface. This includes cleaning off vegetation of all sorts, vascular plants as well as the symbionts, and even altering the crypto-endolthic species living in the cracked rock surfaces.
Vandals indeed...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2014 - 11:43am PT
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Ed, I'll bet it's the weight of our packs that does a lot of the damage.
What we need are drones to fly our heavy packs to the base--think of the
saved vegetation!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2014 - 11:49am PT
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I was talking about the rock itself... but most of the damage is done on approach and descent trails... actually just a real trail that guided us around the sensitive stuff would probably be fine.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Dec 13, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
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Not by much, and by itself not a big deal, but it's looking more plausible that 2014 might set a new global surface-temperature record. NASA just updated for November; their January-November means look like this:
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
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I was talking about the rock itself...
I totally get it. And in Indian Creek, where the ecosystem is so fragile, use trails are so important.
No doubt, the Greenpeace ploy might have done some temporary harm, which leaves a negative taste. But it did get press, and you know what they say about that. I also know that that Nazca lines are world-famous attractions. Out in the middle of nowhere that place is.
Hardly compares to the harm we endure from oil extraction, however.
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