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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 19, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
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Thanks Ahad Ahem for posting that bit of despicable reality.
Oh but I am sure that compared to the children's cartoons in the middle east this will be seen as a little lark to the die hard Zionist appologists
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jun 19, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
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Fattie
Just reminding since you might have missed it or was it one of those “do not show and tell”. You have such a balanced opinion? Baa hhaaaaaaa. It looks to me AIPAC pays your dues or you get in free as long as you spread disinformation and war: coward.
Here is an update give a day or two.
Ex-Mossad Chief: Israeli Attack Would Help Iran Go Nuclear
By Jeffrey Goldberg
Jun 13 2012, 11:10 AM ET
Meir Dagan says Bibi and Barak are serious about attacking the Islamic Republic.
Meir Dagan, the recently retired chief of the Mossad, Israel's foreign intelligence service (Reuters)
Gen. Benny Gantz, the chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, spoke out last week against ex-military and intelligence officials who are expressing doubts about the efficacy of a preemptive Israeli military strike on Iran's nuclear project.
Gantz, testifying in the Knesset, said, "There is a lot of chatter and conversation regarding Iran. Very few people know what is real and what is not, or what can be and what cannot be." Gantz named no names, but his targets were quite obviously three men: his predecessor as chief of staff, Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi; the former head of the Shabak, Israel's internal security service, Yuval Diskin; and Meir Dagan, the recently retired chief of the Mossad, Israel's foreign intelligence service.
It is Dagan who has taken the lead in criticizing his former boss, the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the defense minister, Ehud Barak, for contemplating a preemptive aerial strike. Dagan came out of the gate early and strong, stating, in early 2011, shortly after his retirement (a retirement that was forced by Netanyahu), that attacking Iran is a "stupid idea." He has not let up since.
For those of us who have asked, on occasion, whether Netanyahu and Barak are actually preparing to strike Iran or are simply trying to bluff the international community, Dagan's harsh, and repeated, statements about the plans of the current government need to be taken seriously: Dagan believes firmly that Bibi and Barak are not bluffing. Which is why he is so agitated.
Earlier this month, I accompanied David Bradley, the chairman and owner of the Atlantic Media Company, on a visit to Dagan's Tel Aviv apartment in order to discuss the Iran issue. (David and I spent much of our time in Israel interviewing senior officials on this issue, though in Jerusalem as well as in Amman and Ramallah, we also talked about the stalled peace process - but more on that later).
When David and I walked into the lobby of Dagan's very modern apartment building, we noticed a couple of suspicious looking young men loitering near the elevator. One of them approached us and said, simply, "He's waiting," and then put us on the elevator. Dagan answered his own door, greeting us in a kind of gruff, matter-of-fact manner - he is, at 67, rotund, but there is a hardness to him that is easily discernible. Before joining the Mossad, he was one of Ariel Sharon's favorite generals, and he made his career in the Israel Defense Forces as a renowned hunter of terrorists. He is said to have devised some of the most effective anti-terror raids Israel has ever conducted.
We sat in his living room, which is decorated with his own paintings; like Peter Zvi Malkin, the legendary Mossad agent who seized Eichmann in Argentina, Dagan is a painter, but a painter of simple, almost pastoral scenes. One painting over his shoulder caught my eye - an old man sitting in an obviously eastern market. I asked him what inspired the painting. "It's an old man I once saw in Tabriz," he said. Tabriz, of course, is in Iran.
His paintings may be naďve, but Dagan himself is not. When he says he doesn't believe Netanyahu and Barak are bluffing, I tend to believe him. It seems unlikely that a man like Dagan is easily tricked. At one point, we asked him if he believed there was even a small chance that he was the target of a deception campaign run by the prime minister and defense minister. After all, Dagan's criticisms of what he sees as Netanyahu's recklessness have quite efficiently buttressed fears in Iran, and across the world, that Israel may launch a precipitous strike. Dagan's public criticisms of Netanyahu and Barak have been quite useful to the Israeli government, which needs its threats to be understood as credible, both in Tehran and in Washington. Dagan, however, dismissed this notion out of hand. "They are very serious," he said, referring to Netanyahu and Barak. "I'm taking the threat of an Israeli attack very seriously." He added, with a measure of disgust, and incredulity, in his voice, "If the prime minister and defense minister are creating a deception campaign against the intelligence apparatus then they don't deserve their jobs."
It is highly unlikely that Dagan would fall victim to such a deception campaign (which would, of course, be difficult for Netanyahu and Barak to execute over time, especially inside the Israeli intelligence system). What is only slightly more likely is that Dagan himself is part of the deception campaign, playing the role of the rogue ex-intelligence chief in order to advance his government's goal of concentrating the world's attention on the Iranian problem. My understanding is that some Iranian officials believe this to be the case, but it is a) impossible to prove, and b) fairly implausible, even for the Middle East.
What is most likely is that Dagan's criticisms are entirely sincere. They certainly seem heartfelt. In our hour-long conversation, Dagan outlined his many objections to the idea of an Israeli strike, but he began by disavowing the notion that he is anything like a dove. He does not believe that Israel could easily survive in a Middle East dominated by a nuclear Iran, and he believes that the Iranian regime might not be entirely rational, that elements of the Islamic Republic's leadership might be motivated by extreme eschatalogical beliefs to contemplate committing unthinkable acts.
In other words, Dagan is someone who takes seriously the genocidal threats of Iranian leaders, and their nuclear intentions - "Iran has come to the conclusion that it needs a bomb" -- and it is for this reason that he made himself the principal architect of Israel's program of anti-Iranian sabotage, subterfuge and cyberwarfare (the last one being run jointly with the United States, as David Sanger has recently shown.) One of the criticisms I hear of Dagan, particularly in Israeli Air Force circles, is that he believes a bit too much in the capacity of Israel's intelligence services to subvert the Iranian nuclear program by themselves. (Dagan would not talk about this, naturally: When I noted that he directed the Mossad's anti-Iran operations of the past several years, he looked at me stonily - never averting his eyes - and said, "I'm not aware of that.")
All this is to say that Meir Dagan is not a pacifist. He told David and me explicitly that the threat of military action should be held out as an absolute last resort, but he is angry that Israeli leaders have turned what should be understood as a problem for the entire world into a specifically Israeli issue. "We made a huge mistake by making this our problem," he said.
But what angers him most is what he sees as a total lack of understanding on the part of the men who lead the Israeli government about what may come the day after an Israeli strike. Some senior Israeli officials have argued to me that a strike on Iran's nuclear facilities might actually trigger the eventual downfall of the regime. Dagan predicts the opposite: "Judging by the war Iran fought against Iraq, even people who supported the Shah, even the Communists, joined hands with (Ayatollah) Khomeini to fight Saddam," he said, adding, "In case of an attack, political pressure on the regime will disappear. If Israel will attack, there is no doubt in my mind that this will also provide them with the justification to go ahead and move quickly to nuclear weapons." He also predicted that the sanctions program engineered principally by President Obama may collapse as a result of an Israeli strike, which would make it easier for Iran to obtain the material necessary for it to cross the nuclear threshold.
Dagan believes that sanctions may still yet work, especially the sort of sanctions, combined with sabotage programs, that threaten the stability of the regime. If the Iranian economy is squeezed in a way that causes average citizens to rise up against their government's policies, Dagan believes that the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, might be forced to shelve his nuclear ambitions. And Dagan believes the tempo of sabotage should, if anything, be increased. "Covert operations have a better impact on proliferation than an attack.," he said.
Dagan is quite convincing on these points, but what is even more convincing to me is his C.V. He has devoted his entire life to the defense of the Jewish state. And like Netanyahu, he fears a Second Holocaust. The first one took an atrocious toll on his family. In his Mossad office, Dagan displayed two photographs taken by German soldiers as they were about to carry out the murder of the Jews in the Polish town of Lukov. The photographs show other Germans standing over a kneeling Jewish man draped in a tallis, a prayer shawl. The man, who was apparently executed moments later, was Ber Erlich Sloshny, Meir Dagan's grandfather. Dagan told visitors to his office who saw the photographs this:
"When I look at these photographs I promise that I will do whatever I can to make sure that something like this never happens again."
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 19, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/tourism-in-israeli-settlements-practice-shooting-palestinians.html
Tourism in Israeli settlements: Practice shooting Palestinians
This article was originally published on June 18, 2012 on Abir Kopty's website.
Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronot published a story today (June 18th, 2012) about a tourist activity offered by Gush Etzion settlements, where visitors can practice how to shoot "terrorists".
Stories about such tours both in settlements and army bases are always published, but no serious attention given to such scary culture of hatred and violence.
Teach your children well.
eljay says:
June 19, 2012 at 10:09 am
Hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist citizens of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state – living on stolen, cleansed and/or occupied land – teach budding oppressors how to shoot “terrorists”. How wonderfully ironic.
From the ynet article:
>> Michel Brown, 40, a Miami banker, chose to take his wife and three children to the range with the purpose of “teaching them values.” Upon entering the range, his five-year-old daughter, Tamara, bursts into tears. A half hour later, she is holding a gun and shooting clay bullets like a pro. “This is part of their education,” Michel says as he proudly watches his daughter. “They should know where they come from and also feel some action.”
Michel Brown is one sick f*ck.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jun 19, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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Ahad, are you suggesting that the missiles that regularly hit Israel are not from Palestinians?
Todays news:
"Hamas took responsibility for the almost hourly barrage of Qassam missiles launched against Israel Tuesday, During the day, military facilities, Ashkelon, Sderot, and the Eshkol and Shear Hanegev districts were targeted. After nightfall a missile was fired further afield at Netivot. Most landed on open ground, except for a wheat field which was set on fire. Red alerts sent people into shelters to escape casualties. The Palestinians report two dead from an Israeli air strike at a missile team near Deir al-Balakh, six Monday in preventive Israel attacks."
Not news in the US press. Are you suggesting that it isn't Palestinians firing these missiles at Israel daily, but rather some kind of tooth fairy like creatures? Or by this link you provide are you suggesting that it isn't terrorism as the missiles are not USUALLY killing civilians? It will not be terrorism until they refine them and they become more accurate so as to strike their intended targets: Israeli civilians, so as to strike terror? Perhaps you can define what you posted means?
I can only suggest that both sides need to seek peace.,I suspect that if this was Laredo Texas or San Diego taking missile strikes onto civilian populated areas from somewhere in Mexico on a regular basis, I suspect that the US would devastate whomever was doing it and a few more to be sure so as to never have to see another missile from them....ever. Should Israel be so different?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 19, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
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http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/tourism-in-israeli-settlements-practice-shooting-palestinians.html
Tourism in Israeli settlements: Practice shooting Palestinians
This article was originally published on June 18, 2012 on Abir Kopty's website.
Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronot published a story today (June 18th, 2012) about a tourist activity offered by Gush Etzion settlements, where visitors can practice how to shoot "terrorists".
Stories about such tours both in settlements and army bases are always published, but no serious attention given to such scary culture of hatred and violence.
Teach your children well.
eljay says:
June 19, 2012 at 10:09 am
Hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist citizens of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state – living on stolen, cleansed and/or occupied land – teach budding oppressors how to shoot “terrorists”. How wonderfully ironic.
From the ynet article:
>> Michel Brown, 40, a Miami banker, chose to take his wife and three children to the range with the purpose of “teaching them values.” Upon entering the range, his five-year-old daughter, Tamara, bursts into tears. A half hour later, she is holding a gun and shooting clay bullets like a pro. “This is part of their education,” Michel says as he proudly watches his daughter. “They should know where they come from and also feel some action.”
Michel Brown is one sick f*ck.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
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The leaders of the world today are morons.
Bibi is one of the biggest morons on the planet.
Too many morons does not make a happy planet .....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 20, 2012 - 01:01am PT
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Numerois articles about mandatory military camps for palestinian kids. Show the links to that statement Fats.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jun 20, 2012 - 06:42am PT
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sure enough couch. i suspect if the people of laredo texas or san diego had their property taken by eastern europeans with no historical connection to that land they would be fighting mad.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jun 20, 2012 - 09:20am PT
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We still mistakenly call those Indians Ahad. Except they have learned to live with us in peace, and vice versa. Do you think that were they still nursing a grudge about that - that perhaps the world might be radically different? Not in a good way. Peace is working out for both of us.
regards to all
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 20, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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You know it really comes down to this.
There is only one nation, one people that were ever specifically given land by GOD on Earth, and personally by GOD, the children of and the decendants of Abraham through Isaac, and that was the nation of and the people of Israel of the Judaic/Hebrew faith. The chosen ones.
They have carried the water for GOD for thousands of years and have brought to the World salvation and reconcilation to GOD, through Yeshua.
No one else has this claim on the Holy Land, the Promised Land, but Israel.
You should do what you can to help Israel protect her land and her way of life.
No oe else has these rights to this land.
There is only one piece missing from the puzzle for the nation of Israel, and that last piece is coming soon . . .
Zechariah 12:10 (KJV)
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
Shalom.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 20, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
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Except Klimmer that "Covenant was broken when they did not live up to their end of the bargain. They are in breach of contract, their claim is null and void.
And on another note...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/joe-the-plumber-blames-holocaust-on-gun-control-in-new-ad-jewish-democrats-demand-apology-1.439724
'Joe the Plumber' blames Holocaust on gun control in new ad; Jewish Democrats demand apology
The man who made a name for himself during Obama's presidential campaign is trying to win Ohio's ninth district.
By Natasha Mozgovaya | Jun.20, 2012 | 1:53 AM
Rarely do the sideshows outlive the main campaign, but Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher from Ohio, better known as "Joe the Plumber," who became a national celebrity during the 2008 presidential elections, is trying to defy the rule and reinvent himself as an independent politician.
Wurzelbacher became famous thanks to the question he posed to then presidential candidate, Barack Obama, during his campaign stop in Ohio. And thanks Obama's answer: "When you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody."
Wurzelbacher took part in the rallies of some Republican candidates, went on to report from the Gaza border, and is now running for Congress, trying to win Ohio's ninth district from the Democratic incumbent Marcy Kaptur.
In the recent past, the Holocaust proved to be a troubling topic for some of the Republican candidates, but Wurzelbacher certainly had time to think about his message, which appears in his online campaign ad. In the video, the candidate is seen holding his gun, shooting vegetables and, in between, revealing his position that links gun control laws, the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide.
“In 1911, Turkey established gun control", he says. "From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were exterminated. In 1939, Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, six million Jews and seven million others unable to defend themselves were exterminated.”
At the end of the short video, he smiles lightly and concludes: "I love America.”
The National Jewish Democratic Council President and CEO David Harris demanded Wurzelbacher apologize. "Using the memories of the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust to make a political point is never appropriate, under any circumstances", he said.
"For Ohio Republican House candidate Samuel Wurzelbacher to imply that these innocent lives were taken because of gun control laws is simply beyond the pale. Wurzelbacher, who is just the latest in a long line of Republicans who seem to think it is acceptable to use the Holocaust for political gain, must apologize and remove this offensive video immediately," he added.
Your kind of guy Fats. A totally delusional FatHead. Real classy.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 20, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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Philo,
No it wasn't. Read again the promise above.
It is true that Israel rejected the Messiah at his first Earthly arrival, that was prophecied to happen, but they won't at his second coming. At that point their spritual eyes will be open.
GOD never goes back on his promises and covenants. NEVER.
Israel is and always has been "The Apple of HIS Eye." Even when she is stubborn and not listening to GOD, he still loves her and will always protect her.
The last puzzle piece is going to be fit into place soon. It's a promise. The Jews around the world continue to return to Israel, their Promised Land. Just as it was prophecied to happen. It's gonna happen soon. I beleive it will come to completion within our lifetime.
Never turn your back on Israel. To do so you turn your back on GOD.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 20, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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BullSh#t Klimmer read the original covenant. The Jews were obligated to care for the other indigenous peoples as if they were the brothers. Which in fact they were. Nothing in the covenant allowed for purging and slaughters. They have no more God Claim to the land than my dog does.
It's the GodDamned 21st century, the Bible is a sack of poorly written allegories written by political hacks hundreds of years after the facts. Follow it verbatim if you will but then follow what it says.
The Covenant was broken long ago which may explain why God keeps bitch slapping them.
Never turn your back on Israel. To do so you turn your back on GOD. If Israel hadn't turned their back on God that might mean something.
Where does God condone the abyssmal treatment of the Palestinians and imported migrant workers?
Who would God use white phosphorous and DIME weapons on?
Is your God such a bigoted butcher?.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 20, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
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Fats I've been busy with something important. Newsflash it isn't you.
For every link you post I can produce two to the contrary.
But I really hope the Jews find a peaceful homeland.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 20, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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Philo,
Theologically you are absolutely wrong on everything.
Morally and ethically you have a point.
Do I love America and our Constitution and Bill of Rights? Yes, I do. It's the best we have until GOD governs the world from Jerusalem and we abide by his Holy Laws.
Do I agree with all decisions that our US government makes? No I don't. We have a right to protect ourselves and our way of life, we don't have the right to be a big world-wide bully and go and pick fights and take another country's resources.
Do I love Israel? Yes, I do. I love and want to protect Israel because GOD in my heart compels me to do so. They are my spiritual brothers and sisters. We may not see eye to eye at the moment, but one day we will. One day the nation of Israel will accept Yeshua as the Messiah. It's going to happen as prophesied. I will love her and protect her always just like GOD does. Love is patient.
Do I agree with how the government of Israel sometimes acts? No. They have a right to protect themselves and their way of life. And like the USA they do not have a right to be bullies and mistreat other nations or people.
The people of Israel are mostly in favor of letting Palestine have their own nation state and be in existence along side the nation of Israel as long as they don't continue terrorism.
The Islamic state nations surrounding Israel don't seem to want to give the Nation of Israel the same right to existence.
It's as simple as that.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Jun 20, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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Klimmer
Have you lived anywhere in the ME ?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 20, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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Quit mirroring Fats.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 20, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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Majid,
No. But I know people who have. My good friend and my first paragliding instructor was Meni Raviv. He was a Israeli paragliding top pilot and champion. He lost his life at Torrey Pines. Miss him.
I listen to several Messianic Rabbis. I read and try to understand what's going on in the ME. It has tremendous importance to all the World.
You may not understand it at the moment but Israel is the center of Earth's spiritual world. There is a reason GOD cares for her, and we should too.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 20, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
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I care for Israel enough that I truly hope he/she/it would give up their charade and live in peace with their brothers.
If you want to live in fear or adulation of Biblical Prophesy that's no skin off my nose.
Just don't try to rush the rapture, I have kids that I love.
Teach your children well.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 20, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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So what do you say we eliminate the desperate suicide bombers and arm the Palestinians to the same capacity that we have Israel. Aren't level playing fields a good thing?
Or do you prefer tanks crushing brick throwers? That worked so well in China and the Soviet satellites.
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