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WBraun
climber
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Jan 13, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
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jgill
Wikipedia's puny logic and reason have no power over God.
God is beyond the puny examples of your logic, reason and what to speak of any Wikipedia.
This why atheists always fail in the end.
They have no clue ......
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 13, 2015 - 08:34pm PT
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Ive just got a boner, and i dont care why.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 13, 2015 - 09:30pm PT
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I think that a challenge of our advantageous belief systems is that we have to believe that our beliefs are true in order for them to be advantageous.
so i would say, 'when our beliefs are advantageous, aren't we correct in calling them true?'
then;
We're only as good as our information, including the evolutionary information that we're trained on.
Do you think all human functioning was wrong before they realized the earth was round?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 13, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
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When we have no evidence favoring either proposition, we must suspend belief in both. This is the default position.
if no one knows the number of gum-balls. Staying optimistic over odds or evens isn;t scientific method. It's common-sense. Someone who would try to move someone else out of their default position over the number of gumballs in a jar must have spent time as a craps-dealer?
Hope your not simonizing this with spiritual awareness?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 13, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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goes without saying,
that IF there is any other life in the universe that could reach out and touch us. If they don't have eyeballs, we could surely take advantage..
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 13, 2015 - 10:11pm PT
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I wonder if they'll be as thoroughly baked as we are?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 13, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
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The color of the universe would be void without eyeballs!
Humans, birds and some insects all see in color. It's hard to see why that particular combination would be favored by God.It seems more likely to have been evolution.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 13, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
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Some birds see in UV - and apparently they look REALLY HALLUCIGENICALLY WILD to each other.
Some insects, too. Yellow jackets for instance. The bastards.
Lots of animals 'with eyeballs' don't rely on vision much or at all, of course. Smell, sound, vibration - lots of ways to sense the world around ye.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 13, 2015 - 10:40pm PT
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It's hard to see why that particular combination would be favored by God.
Because God is the supreme source of variegatedness and is the driver of evolution ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 13, 2015 - 11:03pm PT
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Because God is the supreme source of variegatedness and is the driver of evolution ...... Which is it?
Well it does make sense the omnipotent would quickly bore of the role of the supreme random number generator and delegate that as soon as it figured out quantum mechanics.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 13, 2015 - 11:04pm PT
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variegatedness?
You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 13, 2015 - 11:26pm PT
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So when folks talk about the a universal consciousness I can't quite stop from jumping to the notion of a universal caste system of consciousnesses 'out there'. I mean, like are there ghostly universal subconsciousnesses also floating about?
Healyje
When you've been alone, haven't you spoken outload to no-one in particular other than the universe at large? Have you ever noticed your ranting questions or demands to be answered some where down the road? have you ever prayed? specifically, to The Universe, or maybe even God.
seems like all people who put themselves out there get answered
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 13, 2015 - 11:58pm PT
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seems like all people who put themselves out there get answered
Hmmm, you're saying people who don't get answers didn't 'put themselves out there'?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 14, 2015 - 12:04am PT
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nope. been alone in plenty hairy situations. plead, pray, or sing as you like, but its still all just you.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 14, 2015 - 07:24am PT
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Sullly!!!! lol
(Looks like Brando has a tongue ring.)
.....
Of course philosophy, history and the arts are intimately related to the sciences. In minds. In lives and livelihoods. Certainly in my own, they have always been on the same team or in the same quiver or panoply, never isolated.
Once we're past the false, even nonsensical, dichotomy of Sciences vs Humanities engendered long ago I guess by the organizing of our centers of higher edu (colleges and univ), this is easily seen, perceived. That is, that they are intimately related, even best friends, in the pursuit of knowledge and higher learning and best practices.
I'm glad I can look back over my life and see that I never looked upon science, the arts, philos, logic, and history in any kind of opposition. On this count, I guess I was blessed.
.....
Yes, bears repeating...
"Mainly, it's a strawman for those who see themselves as having a monopoly on wonder and aesthetic sensibility. In their 'celebration of humanity' - they dehumanize their perceived opponents with a projected belief system."
Good one. Very applicable, I think.
Or (it's a strawman) for those, who for whatever reason, can't "relate" somehow to science.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 14, 2015 - 09:20am PT
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I must have missed sullly's post...
science is only one region in the larger domain of ideas, one can't deny or ignore that being human encompasses much more than our interest in understanding the world around us in a way so as to imagine and implement new technologies.
The technology divide is interesting to ponder... I remember acquiring from a colleague in Massachusetts a snow blower... one that they had discarded (in favor of paying for a plowing service) because of its problems. Of course I, like most guys, thought I'd get it working, and greatly relieve the shoveling on those brisk winter mornings.
Usually it took me a long time to get the beast started. So long that Debbie, who is not a fan of the gratuitous technology solution, mostly hand shoveled the snow, and watched with great disdain my late arrival on the scene with a loud and smelly mechanism that did great on the light fluffy stuff.
We can get attached to the romance of technology. It's important to get a perspective from quite different ideas, these differences have been around a long time and are a part of the human experience also, even though we often characterize our "science" as something new, and the "humanities" as something old.
It is important to see the whole.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2015 - 09:25am PT
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"It is important to see the whole."
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 14, 2015 - 10:43am PT
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what is outside its "realm"?
it's odd, and "scientism" is an odd concept, can you define it?
"Scientism is belief in the universal applicability of the scientific method and approach, and the view that empirical science constitutes the most authoritative worldview or most valuable part of human learning to the exclusion of other viewpoints."
no one is excluding other viewpoints in this discussion, as far as I can see... and whether or not "empirical science constitutes the most authoritative worldview" is itself empirical... to take a trite example, we can have a worldview in which the Earth is flat and at the center of the universe, what does science inform us about that?
Or perhaps that humans are an exceptional life form? what does science have to say about that? Better to understand than scorn.
What's "authoritative"?
Do you have some philosophical proof that the scientific method isn't applicable somewhere? that would be interesting...
What is outside the purview of science?
If you define science as empirical method:
How do I solve a moral dilemma? Do I return the lost wallet? Do I make such a decision based on my empirical understanding of the universe and the nature of evolution? Moral decisions stand for the most part outside the realm of scientific understanding.
What is the meaning of the Pieta by Michelangelo? How do I understand it? Why is viewing it such a powerful experience? What is that experience? Or substitute a sonnet by Shakespeare, why are these things so affecting. Science does poorly when it comes to aesthetic appreciation/understanding, though much effort has been made in that regard. The notion of art and neuroscience demonstrate little but ignorance with respect to the aesthetic experience and is a perfect example of the notion of “scientism.”
What is virtue and why is it important to me? How do I understand its implications? How can science explain what it is to be virtuous in the face of a relentless and competitive evolutionary process that favors only fitness and survival?
That science sees humanity as an unexceptional (depending on how you define these terms) life form, as inconsequential in its position as just a bit in a vast universe, ignores the scope of humanity’s ability to comprehend what is and reconcile itself to that position. Science alone can’t do that. That reconciliation to living and dying is a noble pursuit and is the true essence of theological and mythological thought.
My argument isn’t that religion or the humanities should triumph over science. I would never dismiss the positive contributions of science but I don’t think the wisdom of mythological ideas and the importance of the humanities should ever take a second place in relation to science: whether your aware of it or not, they have too much importance in our lives.
I’ve never scorned science. But how many here have scorned mythology and the humanities? Better to understand than scorn.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 14, 2015 - 11:21am PT
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No one here has scorned the humanities or mythology - ever. Some, myself included, have critiqued deistic religions and the amoral consequences of their doctrines. That's different - but I suppose one would have to be more well versed in rhetoric to discern the difference :D
So cowboy up, already. I'm not sure why I just said that. Science may provide an answer someday.
Science actually does study why you return the wallet - you're just not aware of those studies is all.
And here's where it gets interesting. If the wallet has $10 in it, you return it, no problem.
What if the wallet has $10,000 in it, your mortgage is 3 months past due, and your wife's due to give birth in 3 weeks? You gonna return that wallet?
Sure you are. ;)
What you're gonna do in that instance is make up a justification for keeping it. "It obviously belongs to a drug dealer" or whatever.
In other words, you're going to drift that much further towards cannibalism.
Welcome to Homo sapiens, as evolved.
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