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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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Tiffany,
As far as I know, if you "look inside this book" for the THIRD edition of Secor, Amazon shows you pages from the SECOND edition. Look for a notice along the top of the page for the Amazon "search inside this book" results.
So that's why it's an exact match. I'm pretty sure the pagination for the 3rd edition is different (at some point managed to pull up an index for the 3rd edition somewhere).
But I assume Jill is saying that Arnold Morales said that Matt showed him the pictures that were on page 371 (Mts. Banner, Ritter, Halfdome and Clark in distance) and on page 395 (Mts. Lyell and McClure) in the second edition, not that Matt showed him pages with those numbers.
So we haven't confirmed yet that pages with those pictures are in the 3rd edition. But I bet they are -- they look kind of classic...
Bruce -- Interesting, though I assumed Jill meant Lyell when she wrote Laurel. Edit: Apparently he did mention Laurel (among other things).
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
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Yes, LA HIKER, Pag 371 in the second edition is the same picture as page 390 in the third edition. Tiffany your picture is correct. This is the picture Arnold remembers Matt showing him. He was 100 percent positive.
He remebered the name Laurel but he also remebered the pictures on those pages.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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Sounds like Laurel Mountain would be a good one-day solo destination from Mammoth Lakes:
Except how would Matt get to Convict Lake without wheels? There is regular bus service southbound 395, and the bus stop is right across the street from shady rest. The route would seem to have seen traffic in the last couple months tho, and noone has reported anything unusual.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
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Jill, thanks for the update on your conversations with Arnold!
Do you happen to know whether Matt showed Arnold these pictures in the book or as cut-out pages or some in the book and some as cut-out pages?
I'm guessing it was at last partly in the book because from what people have said in this thread, the Lyell pages/picture were not in the pages he cut out of the third edition of Secor.
The answer to that question might tell us whether Matt cut the pages out of the book before or after talking with Arnold. Does Arnold remember what day/days they spoke? Also, do you happen to know whether the book (with its missing pages) was found at the campground or in the car?
When you and John were climbing with him, was Matt carrying around any pages from Secor? Did he have any other maps or guidebooks? Did he tend to print info about climbs out from the library?
The answers to some of these things might help us determine how strongly Lyell not being in the pages cut from Secor implies that Lyell was not Matt's objective, and maybe how strongly the pages cut from Secor imply that his objective was the Ritter Range. (Of course, he could have gone to one of these places on Monday July 15th or something, but he didn't sign summit registers on Banner, Ritter, or Lyell.)
For instance, if Matt spoke with Arnold the weekend of the 13th/14th but all the pages were in the book, then he cut out the pages later which might more strongly imply the Ritter Range and not Lyell. On the other hand, if he'd been carrying those pages from Secor for a long time and tended to print out guides from the library, maybe the content of the pages was less crucial and his objective could have been somewhere else.
While waiting for his car to be fixed, in addition to going places within those pages, I think Matt also went other places, without apparently cutting our their Secor pages. If he had other maps or guides or was in the habit of printing climbing/hiking guides out at the library, he might have used those other sources to go various places besides those in the Secor pages.
Biotch -- Do you happen to know -- would the Laurel Mountain area have had snow in mid-July?
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
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It's less than a mile from Hwy 395 to the Convict Lake Resort and the TH for Mt. Laurel. Matt could take the bus as mentioned or hitch a ride with someone leaving Mammoth in the morning for LA, Bishop, etc. (We try to be on the road by 7am to miss LA traffic and have the afternoon to unpack). They could have dropped Matt off at the roadside, or detoured 10 minutes and taken him to the resort and TH.
That said, there's a trip report posted today on Mt. Laurel http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Mount-Laurel-in-an-Afternoon/t12141n.html. It doesn't look very challenging and isn't consistent with the gear that Matt presumably took with him. There's no snow in the photos or text. Laurel isn't consistent with other facts.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Soon 2B Flagstaff
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Sep 25, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
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any gully on Laurel Mtn. was melted out in July, plus is was a low snow winter.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 25, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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Kenish and 10b4me -- thanks for clarifying re Laurel Mountain.
Jill -- It sounds like Arnold did his best to remember. But if he had scanned pages from Secor and still went to the trouble of looking at other pages online, maybe that means that he'd be willing to talk more if other questions happen to come up? It's just a thought -- I'm guessing you have a sense of how he'd feel about that.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Sep 25, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
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This is the wierd thing...
Arnold said the pages were bigger than the pages that would have been ripped out of the book(book being about 5x7). He said they were photocopied(like when you flip a book over on a copy machine and you can see the binder)and they were on bigger sheets than 5X7. Why would he rip out the same pages that were photocopied???
Mt. lyell is still intact in matt's book.
He spoke to him on Friday 7/12. his brother saw him Sunday night at the camp site with his headlight on but did not talk to him.
Other pages were ripped out of his book but placed back in(Palisades area, cathedral, unicorn),climbs he did in the previous days/year.
I believe the detective found the book at the campsite.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 25, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
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@jeg- It makes more sense that the pages Matt copied are intact in the book, not ones that were ripped out and re-inserted. Without jumping to conclusions, that still supports Mt. Lyell, which is intact. (Maybe I misunderstood the wording of your post).
I believe the timeline placed Matt at the library the afternoon before. Since he had easy access to a copier it would make sense that he would copy pages rather than tear them out....less paper to carry and less trauma to the book.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 25, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
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Kenish, I agree that the discovery that Matt seems to have photocopied pages of Secor as well as cutting them out gives a boost to Lyell and potentially to many other places.
However, if I recall correctly, 30 pages (those corresponding to the Ritter Range) were missing from his copy of Secor 3rd edition when it was retrieved. And assuming Arnold is right about the photocopied pages, those have been retrieved, either. So the question is why the pages were both cut out and photocopied. (Matt showed Arnold the photocopied pages on Friday, the 12th, so if he copied them at the library, it must have been on an earlier visit than on the 16th.) Who knows, Matt might have copied other things on the 16th...
Jill, I agree that that's weird. Did Matt ever show Arnold the book itself, or just photocopied pages? Was the picture of Lyell also among the photocopied pages he showed Arnold?
I can think of a few possible scenarios, none of which make complete sense:
1. Contrary to his previous practice, Matt didn't initially cut the 30 pages out of Secor (maybe he thought that was just too big a chunk? too many little pages? maybe he wanted bigger margins or backs on which to make notes?) but instead photocopied the pages -- and maybe others, such as the one on Lyell -- and then showed them to Arnold. At some point after that, the photocopies got messed up or lost so then he cut the same pages out of the book.
2. At some point before the 12th, Matt photocopied some of the 30 pages in Secor, as well as the one on Lyell, but didn't copy the whole shebang. Then he decided he needed some missing pages, so for consistency he just cut them all out of the book. (This doesn't seem that likely -- why not copy all of them to start with -- but might happen if he'd forgotten to take the book to the library or something.) Did Arnold say whether Matt appeared to have copied a big chunk of the book, or just a few pages?
3. Matt photocopied the pages from Secor, gave or shared them with someone else, and then cut out the pages for his own use.
4. Matt initially cut the pages out of Secor 3rd edition, lost them or they got messed up, and then (before the 12th) photocopied replacement pages from one of the the library's copies of Secor. (The library appears to have two copies of Secor 2nd edition. So then he would have had that rather than 3rd edition.)
4. Matt cut the pages out of Secor first and then arranged them on the copier to make a copy that consisted of fewer sheets of paper. (This doesn't make sense because what happened to the pages he cut out? He didn't put them back in the book. Also, that wouldn't really look the same as if you opened a book and pressed it down a copier. And unless you made back-to-back copies you'd end up with more total paper than you started with.)
5. ???
When you and John were climbing and hiking with Matt, what sorts of maps and guides did y'all use, besides Secor? Did Matt bring cut-out pages from Secor with him? Did he ever make copies or printouts of other things at the library?
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 25, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
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@LA- Although Ritter Range pages are torn out, Mt. Lyell (not part of the Ritters) is intact in the book according to jeg . And it's what Arnold recalls could have been on the photocopied page(s) that Matt showed him.
On a tangent- why would Matt discuss the pages with a non-climber? Just being friendly, Matt as a teacher getting someone aware and enthused in the sport, etc? Was the nature of the conversation "Here's interesting places in the Sierras", "Here's where I plan to go next","Here's where I went last week"??
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 25, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
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Kenish -- it's true that the Lyell page was in the photocopies, but so was at least one page with a picture from the Ritter Range -- the one of routes up Ritter and Banner with Clark and Half-Dome in the background that Tiffany just posted. And was Arnold and Matt's discussion of his dicey moments in the Minarets sparked by pages about the Minarets?
But yes, I think it's noteworthy that Matt had a photocopy of at least one page that was still intact in the book.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 25, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
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@LA- true....
Did Matt leave any photocopied pages at his campsite or in his car? I'm sure jeg would have mentioned it though. Random papers left at the campsite could have been discarded instead of being put into storage when the site was abandoned.
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jeg
Social climber
center valley,Pa
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Sep 25, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
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He was invited to have dinner with arnold and his family at the camp site. July 12th was the second time they talked and that is when Matt started telling arnold about his climbs. Arnold seems like a very friendly guy who stirred up a conversation with matt.
Arnold did not recall a book just papers. We do not remember finding any loose papers of photo copied climbs.
Tiffany...did you see any in that brown paper bag???
My husband just remembers matt having the ripped out papers of climbs.
Arnold was really focused on that page 371 and not so much on Lyell.
He thinks he remembers page 395 but doesn't remeber that big glacier/snowfield on page 394 of Lyell Mountain.
He did show him some picturs of the Minarets when he spoke about them.
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 25, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
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Sorry I've been away. Work and grad school obligations have been mounting and needed attention. Interesting evidence gathered. I was hoping Arnold would have had more information. It makes sense that he photocopied either to share or lighten his load when climbing. Jill and John may remember his previous habits.
Tiffany...any luck with the Hotmail account? Since he spent the day before in the library, I still think there is a good chance there may be evidence in emails that may help to locate Matt.
Bethlehem, Matt's home town, is hosting the Nazareth/Freedom football game this weekend. The hosting high school is having a green out in honor of Matt. This was their idea and a very kind gesture. Two communities coming together as one to remember an incredible teacher and person. I thought you would all like to know how much Matt meant to his school and community. Stay strong and search on!
Supermama
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 26, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
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Tioga, thanks for the insight. The second scenario, in which Matt might have taken both copies on purpose, makes more sense to me, because (unless you photocopy a different copy of the book) you have to make the copies first, otherwise you'd end up photocopying your worn cut-out pages...
But when considering where he might have gone, it's also interesting that he photocopied at least one page that wasn't cut out of the book.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 26, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
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Tioga -- makes sense. From Jill's description of what Arnold said, though, it sounds like for at least some of the pages, it looked like the book had been opened up and placed directly on the copier.
In any event, I'd say that (in conjunction with his conversation with Arnold) this would indicate that Matt had a fairly strong interest in the pages that were copied and possibly an even stronger interest in those that were both copied and cut out.
But that's still a lot of pages and a big area, so any additional evidence we can get, whether from Matt's conversation with Arnold, from his email accounts, from the library router, etc. -- would be helpful.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 26, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
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But that's still a lot of pages and a big area, so any additional evidence we can get, whether from Matt's conversation with Arnold, from his email accounts, from the library router, etc. -- would be helpful. -LA Hiker
Yes, that is what will be helpful:
1. Any more info from Arnold
2. Matt's Hotmail account (and another one?)
3. Library router
4. anything else?
Wondering if Paul Dostie has any insights, and if any hikers are going out this wkend, and where.....
I have posted Find Matt Greene flyer onto about 50 hiker/nature/etc. facebook pages....
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 26, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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The Mono County District Attorney's Office was queried about obtaining a search warrant or subpoena for the computer records from the Library in Mammoth Lakes that was used by Matt. Some believe that the sites he checked could provide some clues to where he was headed. Due to confidentiality laws, the Library could not release this information.
A representative of the DA's Office responded that there is no authority to issue a search warrant or subpoena for a missing person investigation.
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