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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 16, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
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Nuclear energy is a good idea? How stupid can we be?
Don't go out in the rain. Filter all your water thru a purification unit. Maybe cheap electricity isn't so cheap afterall..
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 17, 2011 - 12:19am PT
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NHK reports that they again have high levels of radioactivity in the ocean water in front of the plant. It could be that putting in metal barriers to contain it stirred up contaminated mud at the bottom or more likely, that they have new leaks that have not yet been located.
Yesterday Tepco also announced they have a plan finalized for draining the radioactive water out of the buildings and trenches and installing a new cooling system which should start in the summer. From their diagrams, it looks like they intend to leave the water in the basement of the turbine building to save time and money in installing a more sophisticated system. If so, it seems they will still have radioactive water leaking though concrete?
It's very unclear whether they plan to dismantle the turbine tank or they just left it out to simplify the drawing. Perhaps it is just one more diagram meant to soothe the public ?
In any case, they're now estimating 6-9 months to stop the radiation.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Apr 17, 2011 - 07:01am PT
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love...
rrrADAM, I believe your faith in the incorruptibly of humans and systems fatally naive. Perhaps for one such as yourself it's a necessary fiction to get on with the work you intend to perform.
You are putting words in my mouth, friend... Where did I say that humans are incorruptable?
I merely have some faith, that in the long run, regarding the safety of vital nuclear systems, there are enough checks and balances to detect such corruption, AND that the myriad redundancies only add more balances. I'm intamately familiar with them, how familiar with them are you? I don't mean to imply you don't know anything, but am curious if you truely understand the depth of the checks, balances, and redundancies.
It's convenient to play the 'conspiracy theory' card, as that's infinately open ended with 'what ifs' to counter everything, just like others use "God did it" regarding another issue intirely.
Example...
"What if", some alien technology is used to succesfully use transporters (a la Star Trek) to beam a team of sabotures or terrorists to all the key points in a plant, also using "cloaking technology" so they are invisible, and simultaniously carry out a plan? How will we defend that?
Well, you got me.
Personally, I think having 6 units at one site is a bad idea, especially coupled with where (next to a large subduction zone, and low enough that the tsunami overtook it), as when a natural disaster of that magnitude hits (not the quake, but beyond design basis tsunami), they have too much on their plate to deal with all at once. The rest of the "issues" will come out when the details are known of the sequence of events that lead to what happened. A LOT happened that we just don't know yet, certainly not well enough to make an informed decision or detailed critique.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Apr 17, 2011 - 07:10am PT
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Studly (hehe)...
You keep posting confidently those graphs... You may wish to look at the title of those graphs, then look up the definition of that word that starts with a "p" in it.
You do realize, that if I fart in Japan, with sensitive enough equipment, you can detect it after time in the US, right*? And get this, it will follow the same patterns depicted in your graphs, since its dispersal is meteoralogic in nature. You can use the EXACT same modeling to show the actual radionuclides dispersed from coal plant smoke stacks (E.g., Uranium, Thorium, Radium, Radon, etc), as they release MUCH more radioactive materials into the invironment than do nukes, and it is just as detectable... Worse, it is released directly into the atmosphere, 24/7/365, and what doesn;t go out the stacks, get concentrated in Fly Ash since it doesn't burn. And that is just the radionuclides, NOT the rest of the carcinogens and irritants.
*Point being, at what level are the radionuclides mentioned considered harmful?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 17, 2011 - 11:50am PT
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Studly,
what Adam said. Plus, Xe-133 has a half life of about 5.5 days.
Xenon-133 (brand name Xeneisol, ATC code V09EX03) is an isotope of Xenon. It is a radionuclide that is inhaled to assess pulmonary function, and to image the lungs. It is also often used to image blood flow, particularly in the brain. Xe-133 is also an important fission product.
Get your lungs checked.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 17, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
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I know exactly what it shows. Projected amounts since no one cknows exactly what is in the clouds but evidentally the ESA and NILU, a agency dedicated to atmospheric transport of particulate matter, seem to think it important that they put out a model of what they feel may be happening, but then they lived thru Chernobyl. Don't look at it if you don't like it, but don't try to have everyone else live in denial. Our nation is being covered with large amounts of radioactive particles, and they are in our milk, our water, in our animals, on our skin, and in our homes. Tests have already shown that, as well as the projected graphs shown above. Do you deny that Fukushima particulate matter is blanketing us? Our government does not want mass panic and so they have chosen to not address the issue and let the chips fall where they will since there is nothing they can do to prevent it.
As the meltdown continues, probably burning thru any casing and into the ground, and thus the groundwater, and then into the ocean. Who can say where this will stop if at all. Much smarter more nuclear savy people then me have gone on record as saying there is no end in sight on this. 3 meltdowns right on the ocean with no answer as to how to stop it. People are dying from it now, and many many more will be, and how much of the ocean is it going to kill? You think that is funny? or an acceptable alternative?
XE-33 may have a half life of 5 days, but CS-137 has a halflife of 30 years. People in the United States will be dying from this, it just remains to find out how many. But we should all listen to a couple tool jockeys like yourselves who know it all because you say so.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Apr 17, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
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Hi there. Someone I know who spends quite a lot of time in Japan just returned there for business reasons. They sent this account of life on the ground in Tokyo and I thought there might be some here who would be interested:
"I’ve been asked by several people to report what I experience here in Tokyo and so have taken the liberty of including all of you (bcc’d) in this mini-report. It’s been over a month since the earthquake and tsunami hit the northeastern part of Japan, and while things in that region are far from calm or settled, Tokyo on the streets mostly feels like it always has. At least so far.....
April 15, 16, 17 weekend, Tokyo
I arrived to the emptiest Narita airport that I've ever seen. Some of the moving sidewalks were intentionally on stop mode to save on electricity; the lights were a little dimmer than usual; there was an eerie quiet in the baggage claim area. I was in and out of immigration and customs in record time. Traffic on the roads into Tokyo and to my little apartment here were the same. Empty.
The only sign in my apartment that anything unusual had occurred was a slightly disheveled stack of dishes in the cabinet and a shampoo bottle on the floor in the bathroom. Nothing broken. After unpacking and settling in, I went for a walk to get water, food, provisions. On my walk, I noticed the attached sign on the front of a local restaurant, with the sub-caption "let's all rise above this together." This type of sign, I was soon to discover, has become commonplace. As I continued, I saw a few shuttered restaurants with signs saying they're closed temporarily due to interruption of supply chains which prevent them from getting things they need to keep the kitchen running. Convenience stores also had notices on the front doors apologizing for the dearth of product within (mostly water, it seems....). Beverage vending machines have notes posted apologizing for shortages. I was able to buy water, but noticed that sections typically shelving imported bottled water were empty, and the domestic mineral water shelves were full. I must admit that I, too, was reluctant to buy JP water and decided on 2 medium-sized bottles of Fiji. Customers were being asked at this store to limit themselves to 3 bottles per family, and it seems most stores have similar rules for the time bing.
I then went to a yoga class and, having heard that the lights of Tokyo's nighttime have been drastically toned down, was expecting a deeper darkness when I stepped out of the studio at 9:00pm, but it felt pretty much the same as always. I slept deeply last night, but had dreams of tsunami in strange San Francisco locations, and of houses that had been reduced to rubble here in my Tokyo neighborhood.
A few things I heard or read today:
The Grand Prince Hotel Akasaka, a large landmark hotel in central Tokyo, is set to be knocked down, but before that happens, it is being used as a shelter for up to 1600 people who have been evacuated due to the crisis in Fukushima.
One of the biggest sources of aid has come from the yakuza, the JP mafia.
A group of student volunteers in a tsunami-hit village in Iwate Prefecture have begun searching for photo albums amid the rubble that was once a town and handing them back to their rightful owners.
Shortly after the earthquake, a well-known Harajuku (Tokyo) mini-department store, La Foret, experienced an influx of rats and continues to struggle with chewed and eaten leather goods in the stores. (speaking of pesky critters, the city’s ubiquitous thug-like crows the size of full grown penguins have been mysteriously far and few between, which is equally creepy.)
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EQ: Sat, Apr 16, 11:25am --- just felt my first large-ish earthquake (EQ) since arrival. A text popped into my cellphone from an emergency center at the instant it occurred, announcing it. That’s a first, and is apparently a new system since Mar 11. Centered in Tochigi Prefecture, about 75 miles from Tokyo. Magnitude 5.8.
I walked around the fashionable Omotesando area today and saw many shops with signs saying that they were keeping the lights low in the stores to conserve electricity. I ran into a couple of friends, and talked with shop clerks in the area that I know well, and sensed a certain pride in their voices at being able to say, “See? We’re all just fine.” One person even seemed a little defensive about it. They seemed to be saying that they, as Japanese -- as a race, as a people, as a nation -- are super-resilient and capable of rebounding, and that we, as non-Japanese, shouldn’t worry about them. One shop clerk whispered to me that, while busloads of Chinese and Korean shoppers had recently become the norm in Tokyo, they literally stopped appearing in Japan the day after the earthquake hit. She went on to say that she’s had some American customers tell her that they’re not afraid of earthquakes or of being in Japan right now, and that this made her happy and even brought tears to her eyes. It’s almost as if there’s a fear that they’ll be looked down on by the outside, that the disaster is a source of shame, or a stain on the character of the nation to have suffered such a terrible tragedy, to have been so vulnerable. Or maybe it’s just too horrible to acknowledge as real.
Another said that her husband’s family are farmers and are deeply concerned about the health of the earth, and how extensively produce will or won’t be contaminated. As I shopped for vegetables at Natural House, one of the few organic stores in the city, I noticed that much care had been put into labeling what region the produce, eggs, dairy, etc were from. Notably, there was nothing from the stricken areas of the northeast.
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EQ: Sun, April 17, 5:30am — tiny, but there
There was a huge anti-nuclear demo held in Shibuya this afternoon. A typical crowd of demonstrators in Tokyo tends to be comprised of elderly, mild-mannered people in floppy mountain-hiking hats (yes, they wear floppy hats for that here) chanting rather dispiritedly, but this was a different and more passionate kind of crowd. There were many “salarymen” business people in button-down shirts and lots and lots of young people, which one rarely sees in any kind of demonstration in Japan. Before I actually saw them, I thought that there was a sports event going on somewhere because their collective voices were so loud. I also saw my first “No Nukes!” sign in Japanese in the window of a fairly upscale, fashionable café. It might just be that people here (especially young people) are finally experiencing the need to take charge of their own lives, and are becoming aware of the politics that inform them.
New word! The Japanese word for “foreigner” or for “non-Japanese” is gaijin (pronounced GUY-jean). The two Chinese characters, or kanji, that form this word come together to literally mean “outsider” and the term has a slightly derogatory tone, although it’s casually used all the time by both gaijin and JPs to refer to us. The word flyjin (FLY-jean) has been coined to refer to the hundreds (thousands?) of foreigners living here that flew the country immediately following the earthquake on Mar 11, some just for a couple of weeks to avoid the confusion and hysteria, others for good. I guess I’m sort of a reverse flyjin, as I’m one of those who flew back here instead of away.
In the meantime, I continue to take my arsenal of kelp, chelators, A B C D E F G-vitamins, cleansers, iodine, flower remedies, anti-oxidants, miso soup, the works, to stay as strong and healthy as possible while I’m here. Just in case.
The earthquake and all it’s wrought is the first, last, and inevitable conversation people have here with everybody they meet. Today is Monday, the first day of work for me since I arrived on Friday. More along the way.
(p.s. I was awakened by a bit of a shaker around 3:00am last night.....and on it goes!)
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
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Thanks for that wonderful report Daphne.
I'll be looking to hear more.
Thanks again .....
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 17, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
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Thanks for that Daphne. Nothing like a report from the ground.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 17, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
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Best wishes and courage to all the people of Japan.
Big dense radioactive plume reaching way out in the Pacific from Japan staying very intact and heading our way shortly.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 17, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
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hey there say, daphne, thanks so very much for the share...
:)
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Apr 17, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
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hi ThaDood, thanks for your words but that report is from someone I know, not myself. I do have permission to send it on. And I had the same sentiments upon reading it as you.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 18, 2011 - 01:48am PT
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It's amazing to read that since life in Okinawa is proceeding as usual with no rationing of electricity. Although we're only a couple thousand miles away, there's no fear of radiation down here as the wind and water currents are carrying it all toward the west coast of America. Strange.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Apr 18, 2011 - 06:36am PT
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Thanx Daphne!
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Apr 18, 2011 - 08:21am PT
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A pretty good write up detailing status of the units, as well as short and long range plans:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/17/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T2
Although there are some minor details that could be explained better/correctly.
And, for a better understanding of one's [radiation] dose, anyone can use this tool to calculate their own approximate dose depending on where they live and some other details regarding their life:
http://www.new.ans.org/pi/resources/dosechart/
Using the calculator... My average annual dose is:
332.61999999999994 mrem (3.3262 mS)
PLUS my average annual dose working at a nuke:
125 mrem (1.25 mS)
457.62 mrem (4.5762 mS) annually
So, I am below even the national everage (620 mrem/yr), and WELL below the Maximum Allowable:The average dose per person from all sources is about 620 mrems per year. It is not, however, uncommon for any of us to receive less or more than that in a given year (largely due to medical procedures we may undergo). International Standards allow exposure to as much as 5,000 mrems a year for those who work with and around radioactive material.
Using this tool, one can even get a pretty good approximate of their 'lifetime' accumulated dose, by mutiplying their age by their base [natural] dose, and factoring in any changes in location, life style (E.g., annual flying hours), or medical procedures.
Note - 20-30 years ago, many nuke workers in the US got substantially higher annual doses due to many reasons that have since been remedied, with many having an average dose being ~10 times higher than today, so that would put them at ~1,250 mrem (1.25 rem or 12.5 mS) annually. In the course of 10 years time back then, many of my older colleagues (50's & 60's) accumulated doses of 12,500 mrem (12.5 rem or 125 mS), and they are still going strong, very healthy, with no increase in cancer rates compared to non-nuclear workers. In fact, many of them work circles around the younger generation that tends to be a little lazier.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 11:15am PT
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on the plot of that calculation of 137Cs up above, it is important to know what a Bq is, that is a unit of (named after Henri Bacquerel): 1 decay per second... that's a low rate.
so if I read that legend correctly, the region which stands out is roughly 1 decay per second per square-meter.
This is an estimate, not a measurement, and the basis of the estimate, the URL given on the plot is not correct... I would be interested in its source since the basis of the estimate is probably given on the same page...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
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Just curious
The Utility is talking about decontaminating the area, as much as possible, within the 20 KM zone where people were evacuated and the 30 km "danger zone"
How do you decontaminate zones like that? Hard for me to imagine.
Peace
Karl
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Apr 18, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
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The Utility is talking about decontaminating the area, as much as possible, within the 20 KM zone where people were evacuated and the 30 km "danger zone"
How do you decontaminate zones like that? Hard for me to imagine. Depends on the type and extent of contamination... I think golsen is much better suited to answering this in detail, but generally speaking... Not ALL of that area will require decontamination, as only areas that exceed a certain limit will need to be. So, much sampling needs to be done to determine the extent.
If it's radioidone, likely nothing, as it will decay relatively rapidly.
Buildings can be washed, top soil can be removed, wells drilled to sample ground water, etc... It just can be VERY costly to do it correctly. (E.g., Burying low level rad-watse, removing contamination from water, etc)
Again, the difference between radioactive materials, contamination (radoactive material where you don't want it), and radiation (the energy the material gives off) is analogous to dog sh#t and stink... Where radioactive material would be the dog sh#t, and radiation would be the stink. You can get the sh#t smeared on your shoe (contaminated) and smell (radiation) it, but you can clean it off of your shoe. Dog sh#t needs to be controlled and cleaned up. Also, through natural processes, the dog sh#t will eventually decay.
Note also that people can go to the Trinity Bomb site, which is now a Historic Monument...
Or even the Bikini Atoll, where some pretty gnarly bombs nuclear bombs were detonated, is a popular tourist and dive destination...
Note - There are even facilities on the island for tourists and divers.
And, again, there are people who still live in the "Restricted Zone" around Chernobyl, and it is even open to tourists...
In ALL of those places, significantly (in order of magnitude) more radioactive materials were released (contamination) than at Fuku.
I believe the oil SPEWED into the Gulf 'crapped up' more square miles of productive yet ecosensitive estuaries and coastline (4,200 miles) during the Deep Water Horizon accident, than will be the case for Fuku... When all is said and done, I believe the DWH, will be MUCH more destructive to the environment. BUT, that won't ease peoples' 'fears' and 'anxieties' about the Fuku/Nuclear stuff, now, or in the future.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 18, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
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Karl and Adam, the problem I see in decontaminating the area is that you are talking pretty low levels disbursed across a large area. Not really my specialty. Once you get it all centralized (solids) or you have volumes of water I can offer up some ideas.
If there is a lot of soil contaminated you are looking at a massive job which again is compounded by the relatively low levels. Think if it as having millions of marbles and you only want to seperate one color of them. This is complex for soil as different elements behave differently (physically and chemically) therefore making any kind of seperation exercise from soil very difficult. Not to mention the soil properties themselves can limit the remediation technology.
At one Superfund site that had sandy soil and was contaminated with Arsenic, we built a "soil washing system" where we were able to maintain the liquid fraction at a given pH and keep the Arsenic in the liquid phase, so we got clean sandy soil and Aresenic contaminated water. We then precipitated out the arsenic to seperate that from the water. Basically, you exploit the physical and chemical properties of the soil and contaminants to get the best seperation at the lowest cost.
[url="http://www.epa.gov/region2/superfund/npl/vineland/"]
[url="http://www.art-engineering.com/Projects/Vineland/Photos.htm"]
Funny, I worked on this site ^^ at the pilot scale and just saw that it was a success! I have'nt kept track of some of those things I worked at once about 15 years ago.
Looks like they have even used this at Hanford where I work.
http://www.art-engineering.com/Projects/Hanford/Photos.htm
Edit:
Adam, I once visited Johnston Atoll, in the Pacific. They had done some weapons testing there as well. I think that site is all cleaned up now but what a mess at one time. It had a Plutonium Contaminated Area, Agent Orange Area and Nerve and Blister Agents. Kind of mind boggling. Your picture reminded of that place since I went diving there as well.
http://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/2010/04/isolated-and-abandoned-military-airbase-johnston-atoll/
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