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cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Jun 5, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
US Atrocities - Noam Chomsky:

http://truth-out.org/news/item/9555-noam-chomsky-somebody-elses-atrocities
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 5, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
I didn't see any atrocities.

Of course not. We're Americans, we don't commit atrocities.
Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples in furtherance of Manifest destiny constituted genocide. Cesarani states that "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust".[40] He quotes David E. Stannard, author of American Holocaust,[41] who speaks of the "genocidal and racist horrors against the indigenous peoples that have been and are being perpetrated by many nations in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States...."[42]

Determining how many people died as a direct result of armed conflict between Native Americans, and Europeans and their descendants, is difficult as accurate records were not always kept.[43] Various statistics have been developed concerning the devastation of the American Indian Wars on the peoples involved. One notable study by Gregory Michno used records dealing with figures "as a direct result of" engagements and concluded that "of the 21,586 total casualties tabulated in this survey, military personnel and civilians accounted for 6,596 (31%), while Indian casualties totaled about 14,990 (69%)." for the period of 1850–90. However, Michno says he "used the army's estimates in almost every case" & "the number of casualties in this study are inherently biased toward army estimations".[44]

In God, Greed, and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries, Grenke quotes Chalk and Jonassohn with regards to the Cherokee Trail of Tears that "an act like the Cherokee deportation would almost certainly be considered an act of genocide today".[45] The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the Trail of Tears. About 17,000 Cherokees — along with approximately 2,000 black slaves owned by Cherokees — were removed from their homes.[46] The number of people who died as a result of the Trail of Tears has been variously estimated. American doctor and missionary Elizur Butler, who made the journey with one party, estimated 4,000 deaths.[47]

Fatty dislikes Chomsky, and says he's only written one good book, even though he probably hasn't read any of them.
He's only one of the most admired intellectuals in the country. But Republicans can tell you, intellectuals are bad. The Nazis didn't like them either......
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 6, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Opps, clash hits New Jersey. Bottom line, Arab win. Binge and purge.

http://freebeacon.com/democrats-purge-pro-israel-congressman/

A stalwart Democratic defender of Israel lost his congressional primary bid Tuesday against a fellow Democratic lawmaker whose Arab supporters leveled charges of dual loyalty.

Longtime New Jersey Rep. Steve Rothman was bested by Rep. Bill Pascrell, who earned 61 percent of the vote after running a campaign that rallied the Arab community to the polls over Rothman’s support of the U.S.-Israel alliance.




ps, it seems to me that Chomsky comes off as just another anti-American whiner with little substance and no intellect on that link above.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 6, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
In God, Greed, and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries, Grenke quotes Chalk and Jonassohn with regards to the Cherokee Trail of Tears that "an act like the Cherokee deportation would almost certainly be considered an act of genocide today".[45] The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the Trail of Tears. About 17,000 Cherokees — along with approximately 2,000 black slaves owned by Cherokees — were removed from their homes.[46] The number of people who died as a result of the Trail of Tears has been variously estimated. American doctor and missionary Elizur Butler, who made the journey with one party, estimated 4,000 deaths.[47]



Brought to you by the founder of the Democrat party.


Who won election by promising his southern supporters Cherokee land and then ignored the Supreme Court to accomplish it.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 6, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Maybe we'll finally get some "Kosher" laws.....
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 6, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
Fatty

The Iranian already positioned 250.000 troops in southern Iran and French anti mine ships are headed to Persian Gulf as we talk. The situation in Syria does not look good and looks like , US is sticking their finger on Lebanon internal affairs.

There will be an important meeting between IAEA, 5+1 and Iran next month in Moscow and I already know the end result.


is going to be ugly
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 7, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Mr Tool, how do you respond to this report yesterday that an Israeli attack on Iran is a very Baaaad (sheep noise) idea? (I lifted the report from Joseph Wouks blog, it was reported in the Atlantic first if anyone wants to reference the original)


http://warsclerotic.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/jeffrey-goldberg-new-report-finds-an-israeli-attack-on-iran-to-be-a-comprehensively-bad-idea/


"Jeffrey Goldberg – New Report Finds an Israeli Attack on Iran to be a Comprehensively Bad Idea


Colin Kahl, who until recently served as the Pentagon’s top Middle East policy official, is just out with an exhaustive and authoritative report on the Iranian nuclear challenge. The report, written with Melissa G. Dalton and Matthew Irvine and published by the Center for a New American Security (where Kahl is a senior fellow), argues fairly persuasively that an Israeli attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities — an attack they seem to believe is highly plausible, if I’m reading them correctly — would have a great many negative ramifications.

Their conclusions are well thought-out and argued (even the ones with which I disagree). The authors believe, among other things, that:

1) The Iranian threat is serious but not imminent;

2) Iran’s leaders are rational enough to believe that they would neither use a nuclear weapon or give one to terrorists (I’m not so sure they’re right on the first point, but pretty sure they’re right on the second — makes no sense to give your most prized weapon to unstable, and possibly semi-independent actors);

3) An Israeli-Iranian nuclear rivalry creates the risk of an inadvertent nuclear exchange (they downplay this risk somewhat, but not too much; I tend to think that inadvertent escalation to nuclear exchange is the prime reason to keep the bomb out of Iran’s hands);

4) Containment of a nuclear Iran is not a great option for the U.S. (I’m with them on that).

On the one hand, the report represents mainstream American defense thinking on this question. On the other hand, it is not at all mindless and reflexive, unlike much of what I read on this subject these days.

I thought it would be interesting to have a conversation about the report with Kahl, who is now at Georgetown University. What follows is our exchange, which is long, but seriously, read the whole damn thing — it’s important. I should also note that Kahl is the same guy who spent the past two years working assiduously from inside the Pentagon to strengthen and deepen America’s security relationship with Israel. Or, to put it another way, his opposition to an Israeli strike on Iran’s nuclear program is not motivated by animus toward Israel, but by a concern that Israel stands to do something precipitous that could bring harm to itself, and accelerate Iran’s drive toward a bomb.

Jeffrey Goldberg: You argue that an Israeli strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities would almost certainly be disastrous for Israel. In a previous conversation (on Twitter), you suggested that Israel’s only real choice is to trust that the United States will prevent Iran from crossing the nuclear threshold. Israeli leaders point have pointed out to me that the United States wanted neither Pakistan nor North Korea to cross the nuclear threshold, but they did anyway. Why is this situation different? If you were an Israeli leader (or a Saudi, or Emirati, leader) would you trust the United States to use all elements of its national power to stop Iran from going nuclear?

Colin Kahl: Good question. I think there are several reasons Israel should trust the United States on the issue.

First, this administration has been pretty clear where it stands. Obama has consistently said that an Iranian nuclear weapon is unacceptable. He clearly prefers a diplomatic solution, believes a negotiated settlement is possible and the most sustainable outcome, and thinks there is time to pursue this course. Force should be a last resort, and there is still a window of opportunity to find a peaceful way out of this crisis. But Obama has also made clear that all options, including military force, are on the table to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons. In both his interview with you in March and his AIPAC speech, Obama said he does not favor a policy of nuclear containment. And his Secretary of Defense has stated more than once that Iran’s development of a nuclear weapon would represent a “red line” for the United States.

Second, historically Obama is a guy who means what he says, and does what he says. And Obama has consistently matched his words with his deeds on Iran. During the 2008 campaign, he said he was willing to enter into unconditional negotiations to test the Iranian regime’s willingness to reach a diplomatic agreement, and that is what he did in 2009. When Iran proved unwilling and incapable of responding, the president said he would work to forge a historic consensus to increase pressure on the regime — and that too is exactly what he did in 2010-2011, working with the UN, international partners, and with the U.S. Congress to put in place the toughest sanctions Iran has ever faced.

Indeed, much tougher sanctions than the previous, ostensibly more “hawkish” Bush administration was ever able to accomplish. Israel and other partners should trust that he is willing to use all elements of national power to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons because he is already doing it. Sanctions, diplomatic efforts to isolate the Iranian regime, and intelligence activities have all been used and integrated toward that objective.

And, on the military front, when Obama says all options are on the table, he has actually backed that with concrete actions. Even as U.S. forces completed their drawdown from Iraq, he authorized the re-posturing of U.S. forces in the Gulf to ensure they were set to deal with any scenario, defend our partners, and check Iranian aggression in the region. He deployed a second aircraft carrier, improved U.S. air and missile defenses in the region, bolstered the defensive capabilities of Gulf states (including a record-setting arms package to the Saudis), and done more than any previous administration, in terms of security assistance and defense cooperation, for Israel’s security. Moreover, Gen. Martin Dempsey, the current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has noted on more than one occasion that the United States military is prepared and has a viable plan for any Iran contingency, and Secretary Panetta and others have pointed to the unique capabilities the United States military has developed–most notably the Massive Ordinance Penetrator–to ensure the maximum prospects for success should they be called upon. So, when Obama says “all options are on the table,” these aren’t just words — the options are viable and the table has been set.

Third, Obama recognizes the threat a nuclear-armed Iran would pose to Israel’s security and to the stability of a region that is absolutely vital to U.S. interests. He also believes that if Iran is allowed to cross the nuclear threshold it would do grave damage to the non-proliferation regime — an issue that he cares passionately about. Because, in Obama’s view, it is a vital U.S. interest to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, one does not have to trust that he will take all necessary actions for Israel’s sake — one only has to trust that he will act in the U.S. national interest. He would clearly prefer not to use force — and has cautioned against cavalier and “loose” talk of war given the costs and uncertainties.

But Obama has shown, repeatedly, that he is willing to use force in the U.S. national interest — whether unilaterally or as part of a multilateral coalition. Don’t take my word on that front — just ask Osama Bin Laden or Muammar Gaddafi. Again, Obama clearly prefers a diplomatic solution, but no one should question the man’s mettle on issues like this.

Finally, I think the intelligence picture, the level of inspections, and the international focus is much greater in the case of Iran than was the case with either Pakistan or North Korea. As such, I think it is much less likely that Iran could slip across the nuclear threshold without us knowing about it in time to act. At the moment, for example, it would take at least four months for the Iranians to enrich to weapons-grade level, and they would have to do it at declared facilities — so they would get caught. Moreover, Western intelligence services have a pretty good track record of uncovering Iranian covert nuclear activities (e.g., Natanz and Fordow). I don’t mean to be sanguine about the intel picture — it is clearly imperfect and our assessments are fallible. But we are in a much better position to detect an Iranian break-out in time to act than was the case with other examples — and, importantly, we are already focusing all elements of national power on the issue so we are poised and capable of responding quickly in the event that the Iranians are foolish enough to try to dash to a bomb anytime soon.

JG: Okay, imagine you’re an intelligence officer with responsibility for Iran. You are handed evidence that Iran might — might — be trying a nuclear sneak-out. The evidence, like most such evidence in these cases, is ambiguous. You also know that if you, and your colleagues, were to reach the conclusion that Iran is making a dash for the bomb, you might be responsible for starting a war (intelligence officials certainly remember Iraq.) What I’m getting at is this: The U.S. intelligence community might understand that something nefarious is going on in Iran, but it might take months to process the intel, and the process might become politicized, precisely because the stakes are so high. So isn’t there a chance that even if we know more-or-less that Iran is making a move, we might not be able to respond in time?

CK: It depends on what the evidence is. Some types of evidence would be relatively clear. The most important evidence of a decision to go for a bomb would be the nature of enrichment activities — and, at least for now, these would likely be seen with enough time to react. If Iran diverted its existing stockpile of low-enriched uranium and began enriching above 90 percent or kicked out IAEA inspectors, that would both be noticed and be evidence of an intent to weaponize, and there would be enough time to react. Discovery of a wholly operational covert enrichment site (as distinct from Fordow, which was a structure under construction with no centrifuges in it when it was uncovered) might be another sign that Khamenei had made a decision to weaponize.

Where it gets trickier is if we started to see evidence that Khamenei had reversed the 2003 halt order on structured weaponization work (the order discussed by the 2007 unclassified NIE key judgments and (according to press reports) the 2010 update, and confirmed by the IAEA). We’d likely see it, but some of the evidence could be ambiguous and debated. That said, because of the technical hurdles (beyond just enrichment) that Iran would have to overcome to weaponize, current estimates suggest it would take a year from a decision to go for a bomb to generate a crude device. And that assumes a crash weaponization program. The more they rush, the more we’ll see it — and a year is a long time.

Still, at the end of the day, it is probably easier to see evidence of steps to produce weapons-grade uranium than it is to detect every element of covert weapons-related research and development, which is why it is important to limit Iran’s ability to substantially shrink their dash time to producing weapons-grade uranium. That is why the 20 percent LEU issue is so important — because, if they get one or more bombs worth of 20 percent uranium-235 they could shrink the time required to make the fissile material for the first bomb from four months to a couple of months. Similarly, if Iran began to install next generation centrifuges — which they are testing now, but have experienced problems with — on an industrial scale at Natanz or Fordow this could also shrink the dash time, because these machines are 3-4 times as efficient as the current models. If Iran were to successfully accomplish these steps, shrinking their dash time to a month or a few weeks, then you start getting into the margin for error where inspectors might miss something.

JG: The Iranian regime is ultimately interested in its own survival, and so direct pressure on the regime might force it to reconsider its nuclear goals. Do you think there’s an appetite in Washington for regime-destabilization, and do you think it could work — if not to bring down the regime, than to force it to deal with the demands of the international community vis-a-vis its nuclear ambitions?

CK: There is an important distinction between a strategy that aims to hold the regime “at risk” — what I would call a compellence strategy–and a policy that actually aims at regime change. The former increases the costs to the Iranian regime to the point that it forces a difficult strategic choice–in this case a scaling back of their nuclear ambitions–that they would otherwise prefer not to make. Unprecedented sanctions and the credible threat of force can hold the Iranian regime at risk and thus help compel a change in behavior — but only because the regime has a way out. If the regime changes its behavior, the pressure is lifted.

In contrast, a “regime change” campaign aims to topple the regime, regardless of what they do. It is grounded in the view that the current regime is irreconcilable and must fall. Applied to Iran, however, this approach is deeply problematic. For one thing, it would provide no positive incentive for the supreme leader to strike a nuclear bargain because doing so would get him nothing–it wouldn’t be enough to save the regime. And, worse, it would validate the Islamic Republic’s existing narrative about Western motivations and encourage Tehran to move more quickly for a bomb to produce a nuclear deterrent against externally-imposed regime change and in order to invest the international community in the continued stability of the regime. Moreover, if the policy succeeds, there is no guarantee that the regime that followed would be better–it could be an IRGC-dominated military dictatorship, for example. Or what follows might simply be state collapse and chaos.

So, while I think it is important to hold the regime at risk–and I think elements of the current strategy do that, or are at least starting to do that–I think a policy of regime change would be deeply counterproductive to resolving the current nuclear crisis.

JG: Why wouldn’t a regime change program help compel the Supreme Leader to alter his nuclear course? Why wouldn’t he trade aspects of his nuclear program for a Western promise to desist from regime-change operations?

CK: It completely depends on what the specific actions are. A lot of actions aimed at regime change might convince the supreme leader that we are committed to his demise no matter what he does — making a deal less likely, and a bomb more likely. Better to increase pressure in a way that holds the regime at risk — through tough sanctions and leaving military action on the table — rather than make regime change our policy. This gives Khamenei a way out.

JG: A final question: How do we know that Iran would respond to a strike against its nuclear facilities by doubling-down on its program and rushing to breakout? Is there a chance Iran might simply decide that a nuclear program isn’t worth it? Asked another way, is there anything that Israel or the U.S. could do to thwart Iran’s nuclear ambitions post-strike? Would this require follow-up strikes, or is there a non-military option?

CK: We don’t know anything for sure, but the most likely outcome of a strike is an attempt by the Iranian regime to rapidly rebuild its program. The regime is currently pursuing a nuclear “hedging” strategy in order to give it the technical capability to produce nuclear weapons at some point in the future if the supreme leader decides to do so. One motivation for pursuing this strategy is to provide a deterrent against future external threats to the regime, including a possible attack by Israel or the United States. Khamenei looks around and sees Muammar Gaddafi gone and Saddam Hussein gone, but the North Korean regime still around and he likely concludes that the biggest reason for the difference is the fact that North Korea developed nuclear weapons and the other two states had their programs removed. A second motivation for seeking the capability to produce nuclear weapons is likely the hope that it would boost Iran’s prestige and Tehran’s potential for coercive diplomacy, facilitating expanded Iranian influence and advancing the regime’s ambitions for regional hegemony.

A strike would confirm the regime’s vulnerability and buttress the perception of the unrelenting hostility of foreign powers, which would provide decisive support to those inside the regime arguing that only a nuclear deterrent could prevent future attacks and arm Iran with what it needs to lead the resistance against the West. At the same time, an attack would allow Iran to play the victim, kick out the IAEA, and perhaps leave the NPT all together. And, in the absence of inspectors on the ground, Iranian leaders would likely calculate that they could rebuild their program more easily and engage in illicit activities without being detected. An Israeli attack would also shatter the international consensus that is currently slowing Iran’s nuclear progress through sanctions and other counter-proliferation activities.

This is not purely hypothetical; we have a past example of this happening. As we discuss at length in our report, Israel’s 1981 strike on Osirak did not end Saddam Hussein’s nuclear program and actually led him to double down, devote more resources and better organize his program, and create a widely dispersed clandestine nuclear program that — by the time of the 1991 Gulf War — was a year or two away from producing a bomb. Ultimately, it was not the 1981 Osirak attack that ended the program, but rather the destruction of the 1991 Gulf War followed by more than a decade of sanctions, diplomatic isolation, no-fly zones, and periodic bombing that ended the program — and even then the Bush administration thought (incorrectly) elements of the program remained.

This brings me to a final point: the only way to prevent Iran from rebuilding its program after a strike is to have sufficient international consensus and a large enough coalition to create and maintain a post-strike containment regime. Sanctions and counter-proliferation measures designed to disrupt Iranian attempts to obtain the materials necessary to rebuild their program would have to be maintained, and there would have to be regional support for the continuation of a robust military presence and potential re-strikes.

The only way to create such a post-strike containment system is to go into the war with international support and a certain degree of international legitimacy. That means acting only after non-military options have been exhausted and in the face of evidence that Iran was going for a bomb (by enriching up to weapons grade or kicking out inspectors, for example). And it means the country leads the effort must be capable of crafting and holding together a coalition. Only the United States can meet these criteria. (By the way, the criteria are so stringent because the potential costs of military action are so high and the benefits are so uncertain.)

In 2003, the Bush administration made the historic error of launching war to disarm a regime they claimed was pursuing WMD without sufficient evidence that the Iraqi threat was imminent, without sufficient international support, and without a plan for the day after. We can’t make that mistake again."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2012 - 12:20am PT
CAIRO (AP) — A mob of hundreds of men have assaulted women holding a march demanding an end to sexual harassment, with the attackers overwhelming the male guardians and groping and molesting several of the female marchers in Cairo's Tahrir Square.
From the ferocity of Friday's assault, some of the victims said it appeared to have been an organized attempt to drive women out of demonstrations and trample on the pro-democracy protest movement.
The attack follows smaller scale assaults on women this week in Tahrir, the epicenter of the uprising that forced Hosni Mubarak to step down last year. Thousands have been gathering in the square this week in protests over a variety of issues — mainly over worries that presidential elections this month will secure the continued rule by elements of Mubarak's regime backed by the ruling military.
Earlier in the week, an Associated Press reporter witnessed around 200 men assault a woman who eventually fainted before men trying to help could reach her.
Friday's march was called to demand an end to sexual assaults. Around 50 women participated, surrounded by a larger group of male supporters who joined to hands to form a protective ring around them. The protesters carried posters saying, "The people want to cut the hand of the sexual harasser," and chanted, "The Egyptian girl says it loudly, harassment is barbaric."
After the marchers entered a crowded corner of the square, a group of men waded into the group of women, heckling them and groping them. The male supporters tried to fend them off, and it turned into a melee involving a mob of hundreds.
The marchers tried to flee while the attackers chased them and male supporters tried to protect them. But the attackers persisted, cornering several women against a metal sidewalk railing, including an Associated Press reporter, shoving their hands down their clothes and trying to grab their bags. The male supporters fought back, swinging belts and fists and throwing water.
Eventually, the women were able to reach refuge in a nearby building with the mob still outside until they finally got out to safety.
"After what I saw and heard today. I am furious at so many things. Why beat a girl and strip her off? Why?" wrote Sally Zohney, one of the organizers of the event on Twitter.
The persistence of the attack raised the belief of many that it was intentional, though who orchestrated it was unclear.

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/RSS/tabid/69/smid/414/ArticleID/184243/t/Mob-attacks-women-at-Egypt-anti-sex-assault-rally/Default.aspx
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 10, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
There is a book out there that should be read by all. The author is in fear of his life as a result. And a particular government is keeping him from harm by virtual house arrest, and as well as for also making a video that went viral on the internet, regarding all of which you (Fattrad) speak.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jun 11, 2012 - 01:04am PT
Iran in Prophecy

Iran is always in the news today making threats against Israel and the USA, but Bible prophecy already tells us if Iran’s threats will succeed. Ahmadinejad’s plan to wipe Israel off the map with nuclear weapons will backfire and cause his own people to flee Iran. It’s the next prophecy to be fulfilled and may affect everyone who depends on the flow of Middle East oil through the Strait of Hormuz.

http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/iran-prophecy.htm
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 12, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
Dude on youtube going against fatty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNeknF82H_0&feature=related
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
Speaking of nuts!

It gets good at the end when he starts blameing Tom and Jerry cartoons.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

He's got Hobbes bass ackwards as well
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
I don't think Bibi is to worried about that one.

about all Iran has been able to produce in modern weapons systems is really bad photo shop images.


That doesn't discount at all the real threat of a Uranium bomb.

Any high school kid with access to weapons grade material and a machine shop can build the ultimate pipe bomb.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 14, 2012 - 02:10am PT
well fatty

looks like Russians are sending massive arms to Syria while US is shipping things to opposition forces from Saudi, Jourdan,Turkey and special ops from Israeli are all in Syria with 15000 Iranian revolutionary guards and ghods forces.

Talk about Lebanon in early 80s

F*#king Clinton is going full force on WW3 to get Iran
juar

Sport climber
socal
Jun 15, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
hows that jive with all the hundreds of miles of us controlled airspace they would have to fly through to get their?

their planes have some super secret get out of interdiction system which would allow them to just get a pass?

seems like there would have to be stand down after stand down after stand down commands given to our military assets as these planes flew across so many seperate jurisdiction of american security control

hard to imagine they would even dare without it being previously arranged

Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jun 19, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
So far the IAEA meeting in Russia is not going anywhere
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 19, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Dagan warns of Netanyahu's poor judgment

Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan is more concerned over Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak's lack of leadership skills, than Iranian or Palestinian threats.

By Ari Shavit | Jun.03, 2011 | 6:15 AM

Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan is extremely concerned about September 2011. He is not afraid that tens of thousands of demonstrators may overrun the settlements or Jerusalem. He is afraid that Israel's subsequent isolation will push its leaders to the wall and cause them to take reckless action against Iran.

It's not the Iranians or the Palestinians who are keeping Dagan awake at night, but Israel's leadership. He does not trust the judgment of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak.
The Israeli media acted like its Soviet counterpart yesterday, dedicating huge headlines, full pages and many hours of broadcasts to Dagan's speech at Tel Aviv University on Wednesday.

But Dagan did not make a speech, he gave an interview. The difference is immense. Dagan did not intend to say all those things Wednesday night. They stemmed from a deep and uncontrollable need to tell the truth.

Two fears drove Dagan to speak. One is the fear of a comprehensive regional war that Israel would have difficulty surviving. Ariel Sharon's trauma was the Israeli defeat at Latrun in 1948. Dagan's trauma was Israel's defeat in Sinai in the opening days of October 1973. Because of this trauma, he feels a supreme moral duty to prevent an unnecessary war.
Thus even though he knew he was defying convention, he decided to speak out. He will not be party to a silence like the one that preceded the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Dagan's second concern is the status quo. Dagan is no leftist, as Likud ministers have termed him. He does not believe in peace with Syria or an immediate final-status agreement with the Palestinians. He strongly objects to establishing a Palestinian state in the 1967 lines or to any compromise on the refugees' "right of return." He does not believe in immediately evacuating the settlements.

But Dagan thinks that Israel, for its own sake, must take the initiative in the peace process. He advocates cooperating with the moderate Arab states and transferring extensive areas of the West Bank to the Palestinians. And he raised the creative idea of recognizing a Palestinian state providing that its borders remain subject to negotiation.

Dagan's worldview is a hybrid of those of Sharon and Ehud Olmert. He has high regard for both former prime ministers' ability to communicate with foreign leaders. He does not detect such an ability in the current prime minister.

When the former Mossad chief observes the recent regional changes, he is concerned first and foremost by what is happening in Egypt. He discerns weakness and lack of control in the country's military regime. He does not fear a takeover by the Muslim Brotherhood, but rather a slide into chaos.

He sees Saudi Arabia as the strongest, most important state in the Middle East. His support for the Saudi peace initiative (as opposed to the modified version known as the Arab Peace Initiative ) is linked to his warm regard for Riyadh and the hope that it will contribute to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the future.

Dagan surprised his audience at Tel Aviv University with a coherent worldview, eloquence and rare civic courage. It is absolutely clear that in ordinary times, some of the things he said should not have been uttered. But in Dagan's view, these are not ordinary times. It's one minute till midnight.

HAARETZ Tuesday, June 19 2012 Sivan 29, 5772
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 19, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
Israeli Strike on Iran Would Be ‘Stupid,’ Ex-Spy Chief Says

By ISABEL KERSHNER

Published: May 8, 2011

JERUSALEM — Israel’s former intelligence chief has said that a strike on Iran’s nuclear installations would be “a stupid idea,” adding that military action might not achieve all of its goals and could lead to a long war.

Dan Balilty/Agence France-Presse

Meir Dagan said an attack on Iran's nuclear program could lead to a long regional war.

The intelligence official, Meir Dagan, who retired in early January after eight years as director of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, made the remarks at a conference here on Friday. His assessment contradicts the policy of the country’s political leaders, who have long argued in favor of a credible military option against Iran’s nuclear program.

The defense minister, Ehud Barak, criticized Mr. Dagan after his comments were widely publicized in the Israeli news media on Sunday.

Mr. Barak, saying that Mr. Dagan deserved credit for his contributions to state security, contended that he was “not wise to share his thoughts, legitimate as they may be,” with the general public.

“In the end of the day, these issues and decisions belong by their nature to the political echelon,” Mr. Barak said, adding that he was not sure that Mr. Dagan’s assessment was correct.

Iran has maintained that its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes, but Israeli, American and European officials believe that it is intended to produce nuclear weapons.

Independent analysts said that such a public stand by a respected figure like Mr. Dagan would complicate any plans the government might have to attack Iran.

Mr. Dagan, speaking for the first time in public since his retirement, was addressing a conference of senior public servants. His remarks were confirmed by a person who attended the conference, which was held at Belgium House, the faculty club of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Mr. Dagan is known to have long opposed military action against Iran, but he had never said so publicly. Mr. Dagan, who also said Friday that Iran must not be allowed to produce nuclear weapons, has advocated covert means of setting back the Iranian program.

Israel considers the prospect of a nuclear-armed Iran as an existential threat.

Speaking last week at a ceremony marking Israel’s Holocaust Remembrance Day, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called on the world to “unequivocally condemn those who call for the obliteration of the Jewish state.”

“Iran is even arming itself with nuclear weapons to realize that goal, and until now the world has not stopped it,” he said. “The threat to our existence, to our future, is not theoretical. It cannot be swept under the carpet; it cannot be reduced. It faces us and all humanity, and it must be thwarted.”

It is not the first time that Mr. Dagan has courted controversy where Iran is concerned since he left office. In January, he told a group of Israeli reporters that he believed Iran would not be able to build a nuclear weapon before 2015, a year or more later than other Israeli estimates.

His revised assessment was based on obstacles that Iran has faced, including technical difficulties and covert actions against its nuclear program by intelligence agencies, according to Israeli news reports.
Some Israeli officials reacted furiously, worried that Mr. Dagan’s comments could reduce pressure on Iran.

But other Israelis, including two other former leaders of Mossad, said it was important for Mr. Dagan to be able to express his opinion. One official, who spoke at the time on the condition of anonymity because of the subject’s delicacy, said, “It has never been about when exactly they will get the device.”

The real challenge over the next 12 to 18 months, the official said, is to prevent Iran from reaching the threshold of nuclear weapons capability. An unexpected technological breakthrough in Iran is possible, he said.

Arguing that this was a time for more diplomatic pressure, not less, the official said that Mr. Dagan’s 2015 assessment might have been partly intended to quiet the drums of war, but that it was nevertheless “really unfortunate.”

He made headlines a few weeks ago when he asserted at a Hebrew University conference that a military attack on Iran would be “a stupid idea.

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 19, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
A Former Spy Chief Questions the Judgment of Israeli Leaders

By ETHAN BRONNER

Published: June 3, 2011

JERUSALEM — The man who ran Israel’s Mossad spy agency until January contends that Israel’s top leaders lack judgment and that the anticipated pressures of international isolation as the Palestinians campaign for statehood could lead to rash decisions — like an airstrike on Iran.
Meir Dagan, left, the former chief of the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad, said he feared that in his absence there would be no counterweight to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, right.

The former intelligence chief, Meir Dagan, who stepped down after eight years in the post, has made several unusual public appearances and statements in recent weeks. He made headlines a few weeks ago when he asserted at a Hebrew University conference that a military attack on Iran would be “a stupid idea.”

This week Mr. Dagan, speaking at Tel Aviv University, said that attacking Iran “would mean regional war, and in that case you would have given Iran the best possible reason to continue the nuclear program.” He added, “The regional challenge that Israel would face would be impossible.”

Mr. Dagan went on to complain that Israel had failed to put forward a peace initiative with the Palestinians and that it had foolishly ignored the Saudi peace initiative promising full diplomatic relations in exchange for a return to the 1967 border lines. He worried that Israel would soon be pushed into a corner.

On Thursday he got more specific, naming Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak, but this time through a leaked statement to journalists. The statement had to do with his belief that his retirement and the retirement of other top security chiefs had taken away a necessary alternative voice in decision making.

In recent months, the military chief of staff, Gabi Ashkenazi, and the director of the Shin Bet internal security agency, Yuval Diskin, have also stepped down. Mr. Dagan was quoted in several newspapers as saying that the three of them had served as a counterweight to Mr. Netanyahu and Mr. Barak.

“I decided to speak out because when I was in office, Diskin, Ashkenazi and I could block any dangerous adventure,” he was quoted as saying. “Now I am afraid that there is no one to stop Bibi and Barak,” he added, using Mr. Netanyahu’s nickname.

Journalists recalled that Mr. Dagan, who had refused contact with the media during his time in office, called a news briefing the last week of his tenure and laid out his concerns about an attack on Iran. But military censorship prevented his words from being reported.

“Dagan wanted to send a message to the Israeli public, but the censors stopped him,” Ronen Bergman of the newspaper Yediot Aharonot said by telephone. “So now that he is out of office he is going over the heads of the censors by speaking publicly.”

Mr. Dagan’s public and critical comments, at the age of 66 and after a long and widely admired career, have shaken the political establishment. The prime minister’s office declined requests for a response, although ministers have attacked Mr. Dagan. He has also found an echo among the nation’s commentators who have been ringing similar alarms.

“It’s not the Iranians or the Palestinians who are keeping Dagan awake at night but Israel’s leadership,” Ari Shavit asserted on the front page of the newspaper Haaretz on Friday.

“He does not trust the judgment of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak.”

It was Mr. Shavit who interviewed Mr. Dagan on stage at Tel Aviv University this week. And while Haaretz is the home of the country’s left wing, Mr. Shavit is more of a centrist.

“Dagan is really worried about September,” Mr. Shavit said in a telephone interview, referring to the month when the Palestinians are expected to ask the United Nations General Assembly to recognize their state within the 1967 border lines. The resolution is expected to pass and to bring new forms of international pressure on Israel. “He is afraid that Israel’s isolation will cause its leaders to take reckless action against Iran,” he said.

Nahum Barnea, a commentator for Yediot Aharonot, wrote on Friday that Mr. Dagan was not alone. Naming the other retired security chiefs and adding Amos Yadlin, who recently retired as chief of military intelligence, Mr. Barnea said that they shared Mr. Dagan’s criticism.

“This is not a military junta that has conspired against the elected leadership,” Mr. Barnea wrote. “These are people who, through their positions, were exposed to the state’s most closely guarded secrets and participated in the most intimate discussions with the prime minister and the defense minister. It is not so much that their opinion is important as civilians; their testimony is important as people who were there. And their testimony is troubling.”

This concern was backed by a former Mossad official, Gad Shimron, who spoke Friday on Israel Radio.

Mr. Shimron said: “I want everyone to pay attention to the fact that the three tribal elders, Ashkenazi, Diskin and Dagan, within a very short time, are all telling the people of Israel: take note, something is going on that we couldn’t talk about until now, and now we are talking about it.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark, and that is the decision-making process. The leadership makes fiery statements, we stepped on the brakes, we are no longer there and we don’t know what will happen. And that’s why we are saying this aloud.”

Neither Mr. Ashkenazi nor Mr. Diskin has made any public statements, and one high-level military official said he did not believe that they shared Mr. Dagan’s views.

While in office, Mr. Dagan served three prime ministers, was reappointed twice and oversaw a number of reported operations that Israelis consider great successes — forcing delays in Iran’s nuclear program through sabotaging its computers and assassinating scientists; setting the groundwork for an attack on a nuclear reactor in Syria in 2007; and assassinating Imad Mughniyeh, a top Lebanese Hezbollah operative, in 2008.

When Ariel Sharon, the prime minister in 2002, appointed Mr. Dagan, he was reported to have told him he wanted “a Mossad with a knife between its teeth.” Mr. Dagan is widely thought to have complied and is not seen as a soft-hearted liberal.

Although Mr. Dagan is barred by law from elected office for three years, some suspect that he is laying the foundation for a political career. Others, like Yossi Peled, a government minister from the Likud party and a former military commander, think he is doing more harm than good.

“It damages state security,” Mr. Peled said on Israel Radio. “There is no need to give the other side directions of thought, activity or readiness. I am sure he is very worried and is acting out of good intentions, but I still think there are things that shouldn’t be declared in public.”

ahad aham

Trad climber
Jun 19, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/tourism-in-israeli-settlements-practice-shooting-palestinians.html
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