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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 19, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
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gug
I wish Luca could tell the Maestri-Bonatti relationship story.
Maestri was as I have heard an arrogant climber who indicated Bonatti was poor or weak. If I see two "heroes" within the climbing community, one dead, one alive, one male, one female, it must be Walter Bonatti and Lynn Hill.
But even if Maestri was an arrogant man crossing borders that should not have been crossed at his time he deserves to be judged with consciousness of the context of his time.
As I have heard from some Norwegian Dolomites climbers Maestri was incredible strong and a formidable climber.
iep
Jason shitting his pants - that's no mistake ethically seen, that's fair and square. It's impressive to see the way Jason handles that part of his story. And the way he with wit and humor handles his sh#t and pants is part of what I think will make him the rock-star he wants to be.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 20, 2012 - 03:12am PT
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I don't have time to support with a reference what I'm gonna say, but Maestri said in an interview that Bonatti was a great alpinist. He tended to underevaluate Bonatti's achievements, but as a "rival" it's not so surprising. But to me doesn't seem he had special hatred against Bonatti.
I'll report below here as well a comment I posted here
http://www.climbmagazine.com/news/2012/02/cerro-torre-petition
I'll start with the cherry on the cake.
The name of the climbers listed for the Compressor route are Bridwell and Brewer in first place, and Alimonta-Claus and Maestri in brackets. In my view, this is a further example of Rolando Garibotti's bad faith and unfair and dishonest behavior. Because of 20-30 meters, the first repeaters have the credit of almost 2000 m (?) route ... not bad eh ...
Furthermore the petition. Took exactly one month for the author of the petition to recruit 86 + 9 names. There should be more to say on the hypocrisy of some of these names, but I'll do it with more time another moment.
When I read this message
"Constable Garibotti just sent me an email asking for my support in the chopping of Maestri's bolts. A little late, don't you think?"
in this website:
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web12w/news ... -statement
I was sure that someone was desperate enough to find consensus, maybe recruiiting the signature from climbers with a strongly biased opinion about bolting. Quite predictable.
Fortunately, the international climbing opinion is much broader, more heterogeneous and open minded than this ridiculous bunch of names.
What this means now?
That their "authorization" will give also a green light to remove all the bolts from all routes aroud the world, regardless of the host country and and the choppers' nationality?
Is it a "holy war"? |
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gug
Trad climber
Italy
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Feb 20, 2012 - 05:18am PT
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I don't have time to support with a reference what I'm gonna say, but Maestri said in an interview that Bonatti was a great alpinist. He tended to underevaluate Bonatti's achievements, but as a "rival" it's not so surprising. But to me doesn't seem he had special hatred against Bonatti.
I read that interview and I agree with you. In any case in one of the edition of "Le mie montagne" by Walter Bonatti he criticized the approach of Maestri.
I wanted to mention this text because I wouldn't like that this discussion were merely consider as a nationalistic fight even if the most of italians climbers do not agree with the chopping because of a different awareness of the "boundary conditions" in this story.
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Kinobi
climber
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Feb 20, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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With reference to:
"The name of the climbers listed for the Compressor route are Bridwell and Brewer in first place, and Alimonta-Claus and Maestri in brackets. In my view, this is a further example of Rolando Garibotti's bad faith and unfair and dishonest behavior. Because of 20-30 meters, the first repeaters have the credit of almost 2000 m (?) route ... not bad eh ..."
He did the same with Tehuelche, on Fitz Roy.
http://pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/fitzgroup/fitz/tehuelche.html
He called me from Luca M's house and I remember I told him:
"you are stretching the truth at your convenience".
As far as I know he did not call Marco Sterni and Luca Barbolini to get confirmation. I reported this thing to Lindsay Griffit of Mountain Info.
Best
E
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 20, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
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Bonatti would have never done what Maestri did to Cerro Torre.
Look at the Ferrari Route on Cerro Torre. I think Hayden Kennedy did that last year, but couldn't do the mushroom, so failed.
I saw an unreal photograph of that attempt. That route looks unreal. An ice wonderland. Very beautiful.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Feb 20, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
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Because of 20-30 meters, the first repeaters have the credit of almost 2000 m (?) route ... not bad eh ...
Hardly unprecedented. In 1912, Belmore Brown and Herschel Parker turned back less than 100 vertical feet and about 5 minutes walk from Denali's then-unclimbed summit due to winds bringing them to their hands and knees. They emphasized that they did not summit and made no claim to have made the first ascent of North America's highest peak, which could have brought them great fame and accolades. One of the most honorable acts in mountaineering. The complete ascent was made the following year and that team was given credit for the route. Browne and Parker applauded them.
If you are making a bid for a first peak ascent, then more than ever, the ascent ends on the highest point. Everything else is an attempt.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Feb 20, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
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^^^^ Exactly.
Which is why one could conjecture that one of the reasons Maestri did not go to the top of the SE ridge is because he had already (ostensibly) bagged the first ascent of the peak. Back then, there was doubt about the 1959 misadventure, but not the outright dismissal that is prevalent today.
In other words, because summits were so important, then more than now, perhaps his intentional not going to the top in 1971 was a way to say to all, "I've already been there".
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MH2
climber
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Feb 20, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
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If you are making a bid for a first peak ascent, then more than ever, the ascent ends on the highest point. Everything else is an attempt.
True. As a rock climber, the goal for me is to complete a route, not to get to the highest point.
I think most climbers try to serve 2 masters: a personal idea of success that is a reward in and of itself, and an impersonal standard of success that will be respected by others. If you keep what you do to yourself you don't need to worry much about the standards and the rules and you can have your anarchy, but Maestri and others who compare their achievements with the broader community can't have it both ways. Personal success must conform to a recognized standard, an international standard in the case of Cerro Torre. I see what Maestri did on Cerro Torre as signs of internal conflict and failure to resolve personal contradictions. So do a lot of other climbers. It got messy.
Don't let Maestri put the monkey on your back. Thanks to Drs. Kennedy and Kruk for the chop-therapy.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 20, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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The signatures down under do not add anything. It's just a popularity test. Many excellent climbers and celebrities being happy about the result of the chopping. The ethical thinking behind the chopping was and will always remain shallow - no consensus and self-aggrandizing self-sealing reasoning like "tearing down the Berlin Wall" (K&Ks words) and "revenge" (my word) for a "rape" (K&Ks word).
The chopping is no therapy, it's a new failure.
The signatures from Climb Magazine:
"We, some of the many climbers who have devoted much energy over the last decades to climbing in the Fitz Roy and Cerro Torre massifs, shaping the region's climbing history, are in full support of the bolt removal:
Jorge Ackermann, Tomy Aguilo, Conrad Anker, Bjorn-Eivind Artun, Trym Atle Saeland, Scott Backes, Scott Bennett, Bjarte Bø, Carlos Botazzi, Martin Boysen, John Bragg, Ben Bransby, Chris Brazeau, Phil Burke, Tommy Caldwell, Ramiro Calvo, Ben Campbell-Kelly, Rab Carrington, Dave Carman, Robert Caspersen, Andy Cave, Yvon Chouinard, Carlos Comesaña, Kelly Cordes, Inaki Coussirat, Pete Crew, Sebastian De la Cruz, Alejandro Di Paola, Leo Dickinson, Ben Ditto, Jim Donini, Martin Donovan, Dana Drummond, Magnus Eriksson, Gabriel Fava, Nico Favresse, Silvia Fitzpatrick, Ralf Gantzhorn, Rolando Garibotti, Stefan Gatt, Chris Geisler, Jon Gleason, Gustavo Glickman, Milena Gomez, Colin Haley, Brian Hall, Kennan Harvey, Jorge Insua, Peter Janschek, Hans Johnstone, Neil Kauffman, Joel Kauffman, Hayden Kennedy, Michael Kennedy, Andy Kirkpatrick, Jason Kruk, Ole Lied, Whit Magro, Klemen Mali, Carlitos Molina, Marius Morstad, Avo Naccachian, Fermin Olaechea, Marius Olsen, Ian Parnell, Luciano Pera, Korra Pesce, Doerte Pietron, Michal Pitelka, Kate Rutherford, Mikey Schaefer, Stephan Siegrist, Pedro Skvarca, Zack Smith, Bruno Sourzac, Rick Sylvester, Jim Toman, Doug Tompkins, Jvan Tresch, Roberto Treu, Sean Villanueva, Adam Wainwright, Eamon Walsh, Jon Walsh, Josh Wharton, Andres Zegers
We also support the removal of the Compressor Route bolts:
Vince Anderson, Chris Bonington, Mick Fowler, Steve House, Heinz Mariacher, Reinhold Messner, Paul Pritchard, Sonnie Trotter, Mark Twight"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 20, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
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The chopping is no therapy, it's a new failure.
On the contrary, it's an uncompleted success.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 20, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
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Well, the chopping based on shallow ethical reasoning may possibly be a healing therapy for some people. Then something good comes out of the failure. I'm happy for you Healyje.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 20, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
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Bruce
You say: "well if it makes you any happier consider us moral relativists!
or as we like to say, a half dozen wrongs finally made half a right"
At least that's good machiavellianism - half a dozen arrogant shallow ethical judgements leading to actions leading to a half-right result. The half-right result being the justification of the half a dozen arrogant shallow ethical judgements and actions.
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ncianca
climber
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Feb 20, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
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I have to confess I haven't read all the almost 2000 messages in this topic... that's a lot of messages and I apologise in advance if I am going to repeat what has already been said.
In my humble opinion K&K will be remembered more for the chopping than for their climb. Just like Maestri is in fact remembered more for the Compressor route than for anything else. Was it worth it? It certainly wasn't worth it for Maestri to bolt the Compressor route. Time will tell.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Feb 20, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
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In my humble opinion K&K will be remembered more for the chopping than for their climb. Just like Maestri is in fact remembered more for the Compressor route than for anything else. Was it worth it? It certainly wasn't worth it for Maestri to bolt the Compressor route. Time will tell.
If they finish their attempted new route on North Twin (obviously a big if there), anyone who actually cares about hard alpine climbing will remember them more for that.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 21, 2012 - 02:52am PT
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@Merkwestman,
Hardly unprecedented. In 1912, Belmore Brown and Herschel Parker turned back less than 100 vertical feet and about 5 minutes walk from Denali's then-unclimbed summit due to winds bringing them to their hands and knees. They emphasized that they did not summit and made no claim to have made the first ascent of North America's highest peak, which could have brought them great fame and accolades. One of the most honorable acts in mountaineering. The complete ascent was made the following year and that team was given credit for the route. Browne and Parker applauded them.
If you are making a bid for a first peak ascent, then more than ever, the ascent ends on the highest point. Everything else is an attempt. There is a difference between stepping above the highest rocky point in proximity of an icy bulge and 100 feet below the rocky summit.
However, this is not the point. There is a difference between the route and the summit. You cannot attribute a line so someone else, just because he went a few meters above after you. That's bad faith and dishonesty!
It's like if on El Cap I claim a FA just because I'll go a few meters above the point reached by the climbers who set up the route. It's just ridiculous!!!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 21, 2012 - 02:54am PT
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Jim
You say: "Marlow You complain too much"
Answer: Jim, you are free to complain to Marlow. But I don't complain. What you see is ethical reflection. I make distinctions where a lot of climbers just laugh and sign.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Southwest for the winter
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Feb 21, 2012 - 03:49am PT
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This may have been mentioned already and I am no ethical giant--but wouldnt the chopping have made more sense in terms of "righting a wrong" if it were done on the lead as opposed to on rappel?
The difference between placing bolts on rap vs removing them on rap seems a bit arbitrary to me--and maybe that is the heart of the argument--that so much of this is arbitrary in the first place. Is there actually a difference that makes one egregious and the other ok?
For the record, I haven't placed bolts, and I haven't chop any. I wouldn't do either unless I was pretty damn sure it was really called for--and so far, so good.
Steve Richert
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Southwest for the winter
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Feb 21, 2012 - 04:06am PT
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Not trying to be thick, but I'm afraid I might need a bit more elaboration, Jim--but I appreciate your patience!
Steve
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Southwest for the winter
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Feb 21, 2012 - 04:41am PT
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Haha right on. I'd love to have a go at the Torres. Maybe after my year of training is done! But 5.11 A2 isn't prohibitive so it could happen!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 21, 2012 - 04:44am PT
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Jim
Quotes, slogans and quick witticisms like "Respect for the past must include respect for the future", "rape", "tearing down The Berlin Wall", the "atrocity", "heroes", clapping and laughing doesn't equal ethical reflection. The first quote excepted, the rest of the words and actions from the pro-choppers are just food for the mob.
And I am not saying that all climbers are acting in this way. What Colin has written is an honest article containing after-rationalizations of K&Ks ethical thinking and actions.
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