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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 14, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
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It's when real cash is handed over that a problem happens, and Abramoff handed over cash. I figured you'd come up with the narrowest possible definition of influence peddling. Kind of like Clinton saying "I didn't have sex with that woman". Except Bill and Monica were having consensual sex. Not corporation-congress incest.
And, I just joke about the NPS, couldn't afford to take the pay cut. So a Deputy Secretary of the Interior isn't paid enough to compete with private business?
Can I quote you next time the barking rats complain about Fed salaries?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 02:42am PT
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anyway, how many lawyers, doctors and professionals do you know who have $340K AGI from their professional services?
HT, even in friendly Fresno. I know plenty of lawyers and doctors who make that kind of money from their professional practices. If I were still practicing law, I'd be among them. I'm sure there are many more in the Bay Area, and probably a few doctors and lawyers in the People's Republic of Berkeley that fit that criterion.
I realize that OWS orthodoxy says that the 1% rigged the system, but like all religious beliefs, it requires belief without evidence.
And Wes, I discern corporations' constitutional rights the way the law always did -- by treating them as people acting in concert. Suppose that instead of a corporation, we were dealing with a partnership. If you take that partnership's property, the Fifth Amendment requires due process and just compensation, just as if you were taking it from the individual partners. If, on the other hand, the partnership wanted to vote in an election, it has no such right because the individuals already have the right to vote individually.
Without according corporations constitutional rights, freedom of the press would be a mirage. We could take things from coporations at will. The law always said otherwise.
How, then, can one argue as Justice Stevens did in his novel disguised as a dissent, that if individuals band together to have their views heard more effectively, they have no right to free speech? (Remember, the plaintiff, Citizens United, was a non-profit corporation). What policy behind the First Amendment guaranty of freedom of speech would that serve?
If only media corporations have freedom of speech, wouldn't that rig the system more than unlimited freedom for all to spend as much as they want? How would that comport with equal protection, when Congress decided that some corporations could have freedom to air, print or otherwise distribute their views and others don't.
If, in fact, only individuals acting alone have freedom of speech, then only the most wealthy would have an effective mass media access. I don't think any rational reading of the Bill of Rights gets you there.
So to answer your question, yes, corporations have constitutional rights, and those rights include not only the right to due process and just compensation, but freedom of expression. Anything else puts the government in charge of what people hear. Nothing could be further from the intent of the First Amendment.
John
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 08:44am PT
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Gary
climber
From the City That Dreams
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Nov 15, 2011 - 08:46am PT
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It's not freedom of the press, it's freedom to own a press. Political speech has always been limited in this country.
As for Wall Street, we are guided by the Golden Rule: those with the gold, make the rules.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 15, 2011 - 10:47am PT
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So assign the same liabilities to corporate owners as is with partners and I will be fine with 'bbbbut corporations are people too. Right now they are paper constructs designed to skirt liability. Why would we allow people who are not responsible for their own actions an equal voice under the law? That would be stupid!
Would a sole-proprietor of a small business loses his freedom of speech as soon as he asked you to sign a waver to climb in his gym? Connecting liability to the Bill of Rights doesn't seem to make much sense because the arguments that you make might apply to individuals in many cases and no individual should lose their rights.
The system is designed to suck but to also protect individuals from losing their rights. As soon as you try to take away the suckiness, you will start to take away rights of individuals.
Sort of like the patriot act designed to only take away the rights of terrorists but we all lost a little. New laws to make stock-holders liable will result in some individual, like you or me, get screwed by the law.
I do like the idea of making stock holders more liable for the corporations that they invest in. Sort of as you suggest, corporations could have a choice to be a group of individuals acting in concert, all equally liable in all ways for actions of the corporation, or a new style limited liability corporation where the corporation is not individuals acting in concert that does not have any individual rights. At least a choice removes the possibility of me having my rights lost because of a corporate law meant to help me.
Dave
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 15, 2011 - 11:01am PT
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I think this movement is at a crossroads.
Early on the message was the 99%. That message was heard loud and clear, the political dialog has changed, and as a moral movement it has been a huge success.
I think that message is starting to get lost. The message that is getting out now is more about confrontations with cops, local governments, arrests, etc. The original message is morphing into some kind of "free speech" movement. By and large, protestors have been able to get their message out, but protestors are flat out wrong when they assert they have a right to camp in city parks all night. They just don't have that right, nor does anyone else.
I really hope the focus gets back to the 99%, because I don't think the latest focus is working.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 11:10am PT
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Good post Mr Bag.
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Gary
climber
From the City That Dreams
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Nov 15, 2011 - 11:49am PT
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and odd take on it gary,
considering the us governments post office immediately subsidized the distribution of newsprint
They jailed Eugene Debs for making an anti-war speech in Canton, Ohio. He spent three years in the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary.
Victor Berger was refused his seat in the House after winning election.
Robert G. Thompson, awarded the Distinguished Service Cross, was jailed for violating the Smith Act. He was at first refused burial at Arlington.
Striking a dissenting chord days after his death, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Murray Kempton wrote:
"And so, an American who was brave has been judged and disposed of by Americans who are cowards of the least excusable sort, cowards who have very little to fear. Yesterday the Army called Robert Thompson's widow and said that it would send his ashes wherever she wished. Wherever those ashes go, the glory of America goes with them."
Gus Hall, a Navy veteran of the South Pacific, was jailed for over 5 years under the Smith Act.
Then there were the Palmer Raids.
So it goes.
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Gary
climber
From the City That Dreams
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Nov 15, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
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They use government but then they complain about Government. Nothing but a
bunch of whiny babies...
These guys act like they are Republicans or something.
Worth repeating.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 15, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
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War,
What the F did they expect?
OWS spends a couple months demanding more bigger government, and today they got what they were asking for.
More Bigger Government showed up in the form of the riot police, swinging truncheons and cracking skulls.
You didn't have be Nostradamus to see that one coming.
You want the laws on Wall Street enforced, do you?
Looks like they're starting by enforcing the laws banning camping/smoking/pissing/shitting in the parks.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
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In NYC, where for decades (and long before the current housing crisis) there has been too little housing supply, exorbitant rents across the board, and a plethora of homeless yet the landlords would 'warehouse' apartment buildings
you should add, Lovesgasoline, that this situation represents government failure, i.e. the government doing a worse job than the market. New York City enacted "temporary" rent control after WWII, and the symptoms you describe are exactly what economists predicted would happen. Rent control failed, continues to fail, and always will sooner or later, just like any other price control.
John
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
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OWS spends a couple months demanding more bigger government, and today they got what they were asking for.
More Bigger Government showed up in the form of the riot police, swinging truncheons and cracking skulls.
You didn't have be Nostradamus to see that one coming.
Good point. "A government big enough to give you everything you want can take away everything you have."
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 15, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
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The best part about these thread is the entertainment value of seeing how people's ideology so thoroughly colors their view of a topic. It makes me imagine the word "Idiot" tattooed on their foreheads.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 04:18pm PT
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Another clueless demagogue.
I could respond in kind, but the appropriate word is "ideologue," not "demagogue." I am unaware of any successful long-term price control in any western economy, ever. Perhaps you can enlighten me by pointing out a counter example.
Thanks.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
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You mentioned upthread about the plethora of doctors and attorneys in your town making $340+. Can you provide some proof? What makes you think you'd be making $340,000+ if you were an attorney? And if you'd bank that much, why aren't you an attorney?
No, I won't provide proof because of privacy concerns. As to why I am not an attorney, I posted the story several years ago, and re-post it here. This was in a thread where I was trying to convince one of our late ST members that treatment for depression exists and works. By the way, I was making $200,000+ twenty years ago, which at the time was close to, if not in, the 1%.
Here's an excerpt of what I wrote. Incidentally, as I said elsewhere in that thread, if anyone reading this is dealing with depression, I would be happy to help in any way I can. It almost destroyed me, but if I can be saved, I suspect anyone else can,too.
Sorry to get off-topic on what's already an OT thread, but here's the excerpt from the post:
"I'm not saying that antidepressants always work. I'm saying that professional help almost always makes things better, and I'm quite certain it will help you.
I might as well tell my full story, because I hope that if you see how low depression took me, and therefore how far I've recovered, you'll see that what looks hopeless is not so.
Since 1991, I've had the highest legal peer-reviewed rating (Martindale-Hubbell "AV") and through the 1990's, at least, had a very admired, successful and lucrative law practice. Although I had momentary bouts of depression since at least 1994, they always went away on their own, so I didn't think I had a medical condition.
That changed in about 2002. Gradually, over the next few years, I grew unable to accomplish even the simplest of tasks at work without monumental effort. In addition, I slowly stopped climbing (a sure sign of illness!), playing the piano, cycling, and just about everything else that I formerly enjoyed. In addition, by then, my wife said I'd become very withdrawn. I slept inordinately. Both my wife and my secretary worried that I was suffering from depression, but I blew them off. I thought that I'd just snap out of it, and anything that was behind in the office would be cured by a couple of extra Saturdays of work.
I was wrong. Finally, in 2005, one client for whom I started litigation, but then stalled, had enough. She said she was coming to my office to see the results of the litigation I'd promised her. I knew it would take her about 45 minutes to get there. Desperate not to be confronted with my inaction, I made up a pleading, and even faked a court order. That latter act was one of forgery and counterfeiting under federal law, and something no sane lawyer would do. I gave her the "order," hoping to shut her up long enough for me to do my job.
Well, the good news was that the immorality of my action really did wake me up. Within a few minutes of her leaving my office, I was so appalled with what I'd done (or to my way of thinking, what I'd become -- a liar) that I immediately sought professional help. A few days later, I went to the court to tell them what happened. Unbeknownst to me, my client was already there, and the court clerk suspected what I'd done before I fessed up. My client had also already gone to the FBI, and my legal goose was cooked.
By then, though, I was hooked up with a physician and a psychologist, each of whom shared my Christian faith. I got good medication and good therapy. I also hooked up with a group of lawyers dealing with mental health and substance abuse issues (although the latter has never been an issue for me, the two often go hand-in-hand. Probably a form of self-medication.)
Talk about an inopportune time to regain my sanity! I saw in my immediate future at least the following: (1) the end of my career; (2) the destruction of my reputation; (3) abject poverty; and (4) no discernable way out. In fact, reality was worse in all respects except no. (4).
My wife had not worked outside our home or my office for almost 20 years, and had let her nursing license lapse. I knew my law license wouldn't remain for long, and I had already decided that I could not take any more new clients, and that I needed to refer all of my existing ones out so that I could end my practice. Unfortunately, our debts still remained. I had to file personal bankruptcy. I resigned from the Bar. I was indicted for forgery, pled guilty, and was sentenced to six months in federal prison. Had I known all this when I first went for help, i certainly would have seen no way out.
Nonetheless, several amazing things started happening then. First and foremost, friends started coming out of the woodwork. Virtually all of the legal community lined up to help me. My church rallied around us. My family did the same. Instead of rejecting me, they came to me. It was like being at my own funeral, and hearing all those nice things people say about you. Perhaps as importantly, they all knew that something had been wrong with me, and were delighted that I was finally doing something about it. Although I cannot excuse my dishonesty, everyone I care about has foregiven that dishonesty.
As my mental ability returned, so did my business opportunities. I had been, in addition to an attorney, an econometrician since 1973. My old roommate from college needed econometric help, and came to me. We're still working together. In addition, after serving my sentence (which I treated like a vacation, but that's another story), two lawyers I'd trained 20 years before hired me to be a sort of in-house scholar. The combination of these two jobs, plus my wife rejoining the nursing profession, is providing sufficient income. More importantly I am the happiest I have been in decades. Even though I'm 58 and had to start over at age 56 when I got out of prison, I see a good future for us.
I hope you conclude that whatever is in your future, it can't be much worse (and, I hope, it is much less worse) than what I went through. We all can help. You're not facing a hopeless battle."
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
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Lovesgasoline,
How do you think rent control will lower vacancy rates? I've studied and worked in the economic field since 1969. I'm quite familiar not only with the history of rent controls, but with that of price controls generally in western economies.
I've given you a very simple challenge: provide one example where price controls have worked long-term. Just one. If I'm wrong in my ideology, then surely it would be easy to provide me the counterexample to my contention. If I'm right, then perhaps it would be worthwhile to relax the rhetoric long enough to engage in some actual debate and dialogue.
John
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 15, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
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Devestation? Here in America?
"...Americans we consider poor are among some of the world's most well-off. As Milanovic notes, "the poorest [5%] of Americans are better off than more than two-thirds of the world population." Furthermore, "only about 3 percent of the Indian population have incomes higher than the bottom (the very poorest) U.S. percentile."
"Today, of Americans officially designated as 'poor,' 99 percent have electricity, running water, flush toilets, and a refrigerator; 95 percent have a television, 88 percent a telephone, 71 percent a car and 70 percent air conditioning. Cornelius Vanderbilt had none of these." Nor does much of the world."
"And there are few better places to be born than America -- even if you end up poor by American standards. If there is inequality in opportunity, those born in America are the ones with the unfair advantage."
http://news.yahoo.com/attention-protestors-youre-probably-part-1-153806044.html
It always baffles me when people who should be counting their goddamn blessings, instead sit around and bitch about everything/nothing.
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