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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 18, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
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Matt is very likely in the backcountry and that's where the physical search is focused. There's a collection of scenarios in this thread that place Matt elsewhere. All are agreed to be very unlikely, but added together there's a greater (but still very small) probability that Matt isn't in the backcountry.
Has family formally entered Matt onto various US and Canadian databases in case law enforcement, a hospital, or the public recognizes him? I think some are run by law enforcement and others as private websites. Now that Bethlehem PD and MLPD have missing person reports, it may be easier to obtain a database entry. Just a thought...
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 18, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
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Split Pants...great form! At least something good can come of Matt's disappearance.
Kenish...if we only had more of a clue as to where he was heading. It's a shame Morales' couldn't remember anything.
The school email didn't have any information, so lets hope authorities are trying to get into the Hotmail account. That is all we have left from the technology point of view.
There is a t-shirt fund raiser, along with others, to help with search and rescue efforts. Since SAR is all volunteer work, maybe the family could contact a group that would work for pay to search for Matt. Does one even exist? Time is of the essence. (Sorry if this was already discussed)
Supermama
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maverick01
climber
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Sep 18, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
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Hi SplitPants,
This forum was the first place I posted it after finishing it
but unfortunately no one noticed it and went down the list every fast.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2228290/ReConn-Form
I am hoping a Supertopo Moderator would place it somewhere on
this site so folks can access it, we have it pinned for the
moment on HST but it will be in our "Announcements" section
permanently for all members and non members to download it.
Hopefully we will be able to avoid situations like Larry's and
Matthew's in the future or at the least bring a quicker resolution
to all involved.
Please take advantage of it!
Maverick
PS I am aware of my misspelling and that the number 2 is
missing off the Yosemite Dispatches Phone Number, but we
are having some technical difficulties which makes correcting
these not possible at this moment.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 19, 2013 - 12:02am PT
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Supermama,
How about using some of t-shirt fundraiser money to hire the retired detective from Mammoth who works with his dog, Paul Dostie......mentioned in visions and dreams thread.....
Also - I sent Find Matt Greene poster to 3 Chambers of Commerce and got this reply today:
**
**//Mammoth Lakes Chamber of Commerce
Yes, I will include it in our weekly email blast which reaches 1,000 people.//
I haven't received a reply from Mariposa Chamber (Yosemite) or Minden, NV.
Any other suggestions of places to send it? I mentioned that we (you) are looking for someone who may have spoken to Matt close to July 16th that might have an idea where he went on the 17th.
-------------------------------------------------------
I contacted Harv Galic from Stanford who wrote about the Rettenbachers, a couple who died climbing Banner Mtn in the 1930s, and who were buried near by.....part of his response as follows:
Wendy, I am painfully aware of Matt's disappearance. I came back from
the Sierra yesterday, and I can tell you that the 'missing' posters
are everywhere: at trailheads, national park's enter/exit stations,
forest service ranger station, etc. Actually, I was climbing in the
Minarets (which would be an area of high interest to Matt, and close
to his last known location) in the last week of July. At that time
Matt's disappearance was not yet known, but I didn't see anything
suspicious. However, that means nothing. Even if hundreds of people
were to comb the Minarets, they could still easily miss finding any
clues.
For the sake of family and friends, I wish there is a closure to
Matthew's case, and soon. However, the first snow may come to the
Ritter Range and nearby high mountains as soon as this weekend.
-Harv
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Supermama
Social climber
pa
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Sep 19, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
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Pacarockhound...Thank you for your suggestions. Matt's family, who checks in with this forum, would need to decide how they want to spend the money. I'm sure they will see this, so thank you.
Great job sending out the flyers to everyone! The more people who know, the better! Perhaps someone else from the area could suggest other places to send the flyer. I am not from the area.
Please send Harv a big thank you for his report and words of wisdom. I realize the odds are against Matt. All we can do is pray for a miracle!
If anyone else has any other suggestions, please chime in.
Will anyone be hiking in the area this weekend?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 19, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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So far ...
Still nothing. Nada, zero.
The guy vanished into thin air.
No one has a clue where he really went ultimately.
Still, .... just tons of guesses .......
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Sep 20, 2013 - 12:01am PT
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I never tell anybody where I'm going, but I figure my car being parked in a certain place would tip them off, if I was dead or whatever nearby.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 01:53am PT
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Kenish and ZBrown
You now have me thinking about missing persons data bases....I hope Matt is on all of them.
Found the info about number of Missing Persons and details about searches interesting. Thanks for sharing that ZBrown.
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Todd Quinn
Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 02:34am PT
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Morales information/
Harv you rock, ctadlock thank you. Thank you for putting in the time on the ground. The information from the Morales suggests he is a non climber. I don’t believe Matt would have gone into detail with a non climber about his route
Rather, Matt may have just shared a picture from the book of where he was going? Chapter twelve can be broken down to full page or half page photography. It is a shame the Morales didn’t come forward sooner. Memories fade but in this example it was borderline criminal not to come forward sooner. Maybe they can make up time and try to further help the Greene Family.
Don’t beat me up, but hypnosis can help people remember the past. It’s legit sh#t.
Hope everyone on this site is doing well.
Book: The High Sierra Peaks, Passes, Trails 3rd Edition By Secor
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 20, 2013 - 03:01am PT
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Ctadlock, thanks to you and yours for searching and reporting.
HighTraverse, thanks for your thoughts -- I'm glad we can consider those areas searched.
Pacarockhound, thanks for sending the flyer to those Chambers of Commerce and for contacting Harv Galic.
SplitPants, welcome back! I appreciate all the work, skill, and good sense you've brought to this search.
Supermama, thanks for your efforts -- good to hear about the fundraiser.
And thanks to everyone else for your effort and ideas! I hope we have a break in this case soon, or at least can get a little more info from the emails, Morales family, etc....
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tdg119
Social climber
Northampton, PA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 06:20am PT
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Interesting missing persons info.
Morales has access to the scanned missing chaper of the books hanks o SplitPants and jeg and her husband have been working with him over the phone to see what he remembers.
I need to touch base with the PA detective to see if he received case files and is willing to start pulling the records requested.
I'm not opposed to some of the SAR methods proposed. I will gladly look into Paul Dostie more if someone can scrounge up a way to get a hold of him. I've found little, though admittedly haven't tried social media because I access a lot from my work PC.
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 10:57am PT
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Paul Dostie has been retired for several years and his dog, Buster, is a cadaver dog. He will have the same problem as SAR. Without a specific location to search, he won't know where to go. But, I will try to get hold of him today and refer him to this site to see if he can help.
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kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 11:55am PT
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It is a shame the Morales didn’t come forward sooner. Memories fade but in this example it was borderline criminal not to come forward sooner. Maybe they can make up time and try to further help the Greene Family.
With all due respect, that's a pretty harsh judgment of Morales. They are probably not climbers as you commented. He learned of Matt's disappearance via a relative (Silva) who saw the FB page. FYI, I didn't hear about Matt until mid-August, via the Mammoth Times website in preparation for a trip to the area. Nobody else in our group of 8 were aware of it. A few LA news stations carried the story in late August as a 30-second blurb. It was lucky that Morales knew about it at all.
Morales voluntarily came forward in late August. Factually, the first 3-4 weeks of the delay were caused by Matt not being missed, then SAR and law enforcement being unable to mobilize due to lack of information. It is a shame Morales couldn't come forward sooner but it wasn't an unwillingness.
My $.02 worth.
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 20, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
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Tiffany, I’m glad Jill and John are working with Arnold Morales, his family, and the book!
Jill and John -- you probably know about this, but I have a few suggestions based on cognitive psychology (my field). Caveat: I'm not a professional interviewer or investigator;the police may also have suggestions. Here goes anyway...
Of course, it's helpful to establish a rapport -- you probably have already done so. Discussing Mr. Morales's camping trip, what family members were present, and how he met Matt can help both establish rapport and provide retrieval cues for the information we're trying to get. Your caring for Matt can help you connect.
Maybe it will all come back to him when he sees the pages -- maybe it already has. If not, it may help memory to recreate as much as possible the conditions under which Matt showed Arnold the book and to bring to mind what was going on then. If you could be there in person, for instance, and if Matt showed Arnold the book while they were sitting at a picnic table, one could sit at a table with Arnold and as many as possible of any family members who were present that day in July. One could ask Arnold where Matt’s campsite was in relation to the table, and about when he showed Matt the book – what day was it, what time, where did Matt sit, etc. Then you could ask him what Matt did when he presented the book (or the pages? were the pages already removed from the book?) and ask him to remember the conversation and actions in detail.
In all of us, memory isn’t just playback – it involves reconstruction and can be influenced by suggestion. So to get accurate info it’s important to avoid asking "leading" questions that imply a particular answer -- open-ended questions are good, especially at first.
Given that you’re doing this over the phone (and depending on how much time Arnold has, of course), you could ask him to talk about how he met Matt, where were their campsites, who in the family spoke with him, did they hang out together and what did they do (did they share any food, etc.). And then you could do what I suggested above, except through verbal descriptions on the phone instead of in person. In doing so, if you notice that Mr. Morales tends to think of things in a particular way -- for instance, visually, spatially, or verbally -- it might be good to go with that. (This last point is no big deal -- most people think of things in a variety of ways -- it's just that he might happen to focus on different things than you do.)
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 20, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
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I agree with Kenish that one shouldn’t judge the Morales family, as they appear to have learned of Matt’s disappearance much later than it occurred. Todd may be frustrated because, like Tiffany, he tried to contact them via Facebook, with no response. (Thank you, Todd for your efforts in that regard, and for familiarizing yourself with the Secor pages.)
A number of things were against those attempts: The two family members who “liked” the Find Matthew Greene page may have turned off notifications. Facebook doesn’t inform you of other comments people make in reply to the same post, only of replies to your own comment. Whether in your own feed or on another page, it's very hard to find comments on posts long ago. Emails sent through FB to someone who isn't a FB friend go to their "other” email box, which many people don’t even know exists. So it can be very frustrating trying to reach people through FB.
Also, there was some caution in contacting family members directly (for instance, by tracking them down in Bakersfield) because one didn’t want to scare them away and because they might have been witnesses in a criminal investigation.
Now that the police have said it’s okay for Tiffany, Jill, and John to contact them directly, maybe they can make some headway...
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Dan Watson
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
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I just spoke with Paul Dostie who responded to an e-mail I sent this morning. Buster, his cadaver dog, is now 10 years old and only has 3 legs. So his ability to search is limited as to distance. He can't go miles and miles anymore, but if he can get somewhere with a reasonably high likelihood of catching a scent, he can help. I explained to Paul the many possible areas Matthew could be. He has not had to look at this website, but will later today and then decide if he believes he can be of assistance to the search.
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SplitPants
Social climber
LA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
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Chief Watson,
Thanks a bunch for reaching out to Paul Dostie! Would be great if Buster could help out:)
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LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 20, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
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Chief Watson,
I also want to thank you for following up with Paul Dostie. Even if Buster can’t help at this point, Dostie sounds like an excellent detective. Maybe he has some insights or could help in some other way.
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pacarockhound
Social climber
Escondido CA
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Sep 21, 2013 - 02:29am PT
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I was looking at photos by David Husted whose beautiful photos cyduke posted a week or so ago and contacted him though facebook climbing groups. He responded:
I'm headed up the North Fork of the San Joaquin River for a shot at Rodgers Peak here next week. I'll keep an eye out for the blue hat and/or Nepal Extreme Mtn Boots.
I'm kind of curious how well this area just west of the Clyde Minarets has been searched, especially towards the back of the lake by the glacier. http://hikenhi.smugmug.com/.../i-FRkvp84/A
The Alpine Lake
hikenhi.smugmug.com
This is a small un-named alpine Lake that's west of the Clyde Minaret. This smal... |
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