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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 18, 2012 - 09:09am PT
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No Randisi... It's just an act of covert aggression trying to add to the polarization by indicating that the dog is an excellent metaphore for K&K... tearing down Their Berlin Wall... commanded by the master they have internalized... LOL...
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Feb 18, 2012 - 09:09am PT
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how about some more godamn pics? this horse is glue...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 18, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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I wonder if Americans understand what the Italians mean by comparing K&K to the Taliban? What do most Americans think when hearing this?
I certainly can't speak for most Americans (the vast majority don't climb). But it's a pretty poor analogy to associate the Taliban destroying giant 2000 year old Buddha carvings with the chopping of a route done 42 years ago which was / is widely thought to be an abomination (or consecration, desecration, etc).
Speaking of poor analogies, since we keep hearing words to the effect of "leave the old man alone"; "don't beat up an 80 year old man", I suppose we could have said the same about Nazi war criminals captured in their 80's and 90's. Thank goodness they didn't get any sympathy just beacause they were old!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 18, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
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Perhaps you should try reading a little more carefully?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 18, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
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Hardman
I see you understand the analogy. In my view "The Taliban of CT" (destructors of cultural symbols from times gone) is not quite as bad an analogy as it is when K&K compare the chopping of the bolts to tearing down The Berlin Wall (giving freedom to the people to move where they want to move), but it is still no good analogy. But as this case show, the polarization is clear. First K&K claiming to have been tearing down The Berlin Wall and then the Italians reacting by giving K&K the name "The Taliban of Cerro Torre". Bringing the nazis into this is just annoying.
One important difference I see between the American and the Italian view is that the Americans insist upon not forgiving the old man while the Italians insist upon forgiving and treating the old man with respect even if he failed 40 years ago.
Hayden and Jason are young guys, 20-25 years old, born 17-22 years after Maestri's bolting. The chopping was in my view an aggressive act based on the stories brought to them by climbers 30-40 years older. It doesn't make the act of chopping any better that it is supported by Messner and other half-gods or authorities.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Feb 18, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
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Because another thread has become my inveterate "see what's on Supertopo" pageview, I think I'll post the following to wrap up my thoughts on this thread. Greg Foweraker wrote me last week in response to my comment about their route on Shipton, and and asked me my thoughts about Jason and Hayden, as he was going to introduce them at an event. Here:
I think Hayden and Jason are heroes in the sense that they did something they believed in. I think John Long's comments have been the most appropriate--the state of climbing is determined by the vanguard, and they are the vanguard.
Jim McCarthy once told me (when I was young): "Youth is wasted on the young." But that's bullsh#t, even though we might do things which we later in life view as impetuous, immature, reckless or whatever, our actions define us, for better or worse, and it's generally better than we initially can conceive. Hayden and Jason's path in life will definitely be affected by their actions on Cerro Torre, but I suspect it will be for the better.
That about sums it up for me. Apologies for the stochastic post. Carry on!
(EDIT: Jim McCarthy, btw, is one of my heroes of the old days).
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 18, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
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deuce4
You say: "I think Hayden and Jason are heroes in the sense that they did something they believed in."
To agree with you I will have to add something: To believe in what you do is not enough. A lot of people have done sick things through life based on an equally sick belief. The KKK as an example. To be a role model you also have to show that you acted based on a deeper ethical reflection and not only out of aggression and self-confirming reasoning. And in this they are lacking. They acted from an aggression and self-confirming reasoning we can see shining through in the words atrocity, rape and tearing down The Berlin Wall.
You also say: "even though we might do things which we later in life view as impetuous, immature, reckless or whatever, our actions define us, for better or worse, and it's generally better than we initially can conceive. Hayden and Jason's path in life will definitely be affected by their actions on Cerro Torre, but I suspect it will be for the better."
My answer: What do you mean by "path in life affected for the better"? Do you mean well received within some circles - the circles who praise the chopping and K&K as heroes? Or do you mean more loved - by who? Or do you mean becoming more humble, better at reflecting around the perspectives of others before they act?
I can easily see an arrogance behind the words "Carry on!". Well, if so - that's your choice.
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bmacd
Mountain climber
100% Canadian
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Feb 18, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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News Flash: I was just informed by a highly authoritative source that Hayden holds dual Canadian / American citizenship - so this possibly a 100% Canadian operation if Hayden did enter Patagonia on his Canadian passport.
No need for you Americans to bear the cross on this one.
"Canadians Chop bolts on Cerro Torre" has a nice ring to it ... major celebrations tonight after the Vanguard make their presentations at the VIMFF
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 19, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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Respect for failure is one thing, respect for lying is quite another. A part of me feels sorry for him, respect could come if he told the truth.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 19, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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Tami
Everybody in North America, even Canadians, know that Norway is the capital of Sweden. ;o)
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eric Johnstone
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 19, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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Or possibly it's the thought that a persons actions and honesty reflect their character.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 19, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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@Snorky
Enzolino,
What was respectable about the route, other than its old age? Name something respectable about it.
Besides, the route is still right there. Only some superfluous protection was removed. It was free climbed without the bolts just days later! Nobody can take Maestri's name away from the route's history. Are you afraid people will forget the story? What do the bolts represent to you?
To me, it's like you're saying this: It's true, unnecessary bolt ladders are objectively bad and have no place in the alpine arena, except for the worst bolt ladder in the most beautiful area, which should never be removed, because it represents one man's personal struggle to cope with the trauma of having been justifiably doubted after the discovery of his half-truth. The bolts should remain, not even for climbing necessarily, but just as a monument to this tortured man, even though he himself wanted to remove them (and did so at the top).
So, if I follow, it is out of respect for Maestri that we must preserve the bolts that he wanted to remove. Huh? Personally I would not have had any objection against the bolts removal if it would have been carried on in a different way. But I cannot tolerate that:
 first Rolando Garibotti and Haley promote a kind of mediatic anti-Maestri's campaign, describing the bolts as a Maestri's insanity.
Secondly that KKK describe this chopping a gesture of liberation for new generation analogous to the break of the Berlin's wall and the Compressor route an atrocity; just bullshit!
Third they did so in a foreign country ignoring the opinion of the locals. And this creates a dangerous precedence.
I cannot tolerate the disrespect and arrogance of these actions.
In the last two decades there have been several routes in Dolomites where old aid routes were freeclimbed or pitons or bolts were removed. But this was done without pissing on the head of the climbers who opened the route, but giving them respect. Personally I opened about 100 routes in Italy and Greece, all without bolts. I promoted clean climbing in the local areas where I lived. But I cannot ignore climbing history and diversity. And if yclimbers don't respect people's dignity and values, their actions will backfire one day.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
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Marlow: To be a role model you also have to show that you acted based on a deeper ethical reflection and not only out of aggression and self-confirming reasoning.
Now if only Maestri had read this before boarding the helicopter...
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gug
Trad climber
Italy
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Feb 19, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
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Marlow, I completely agree with you: it is exactly what i tried to express in one of my posts.
Furthermore I think that is not right to see this discussion just as a nationalistic fight (even if nationalism is in many opinions I read): many italians don't agree with the chopping because they know better than others the story, the personality and the routes that Maestri made on Alps and for this reason they can better understand the reason for climb the route that way and feel that the compressor route is part of the hystory of alpinism and they don't like that this history is erased now.
Nevertheless the compressor route was not considered as ethically acceptable even in Italy: I remember that first time I read something on that route was in one of the books of Walter Bonatti and he had a very bad opinion on it.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 19, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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Marlow
So what have you ever done?
What have you really ever done?
Anonymous poster extraordinaire. Who are you really.
Or are you so afraid to reveal yourself .....
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 19, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
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WBraun
I'm not afraid. It would not add anything to reveal who I am, so I will not. I'm "noch einer" climber. You are a far better climber than I have ever been or will ever be.
Is it your opinion that this fact has implications for the worth of my argumentation? Do you think an argument from an 8a climber has more weigth than an argument from a 7a climber?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 19, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
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7a 8a what the hell kind of answer is that?
I wasn't asking for any numbers. You're hung up on numbers.
What have you really ever done and who are you was the question.
You are scared to reveal yourself for who you really are.
Anonymous posters are so scared .....
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Feb 19, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
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Marlow: No, I'm not
WBraun: Yes, you are
etc.
Contradiction... just boring...
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