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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 11, 2017 - 07:56am PT
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MikeL,
Can you recognize these as concepts? Just like “flow,” when you have an experience of a “thing,” you see that its concept falls far short of the experience.
That list of phrases I posted are used as concepts in the Thomas Metzinger podcast hosted by Sam Harris. Flow can occur without being physically involved. One can get in flow with the mere hashing out of concepts. It does not happen only while Climbing. In fact flow can occur quite regularly & daily during doing just about any task. Do you understand flow? People do experience flow while gardening.
I do not mistake the concepts of what happens during flow for experience of flow but again, one can get into flow by jiggling concepts -- math comes to mind. It seems all of the avenues for achieving flow happen in the context of solely [or group centered] organizing something. Flow is not meditating.
MikeL,
Do lack the intuition to understand consciousness?
???? (Grammar can be helpful.)
Yes, I will try again: Do you lack the intuition to understand consciousness?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2017 - 08:07am PT
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The gross materialist scientist will take the sons mother after she dies and dissect her mortal body and analyze every inch of it and collect its data
and then tell the son we NOW KNOW more about your mother .......LOL
The mother never was that mortal body ........
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2017 - 09:31am PT
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MikeL, as you know, the treatment of "Alchemy" as an academic study is split into major camps, one being the "history of science" camp, the other the "spiritualist" camp. The split came in the 19th century revival of alchemy during a time where spiritualism became popular in Europe and America.
Alchemy has a long history and could be considered a competing theory of matter among many ancient ideas regarding matter. The positive role of alchemy in developing techniques foundational to chemistry is not much talked about as chemistry, early in its development, sought to distance itself from the "philosophy" of alchemy.
The foundations of alchemical philosophy seems to incorporate spiritual and super-natural dimensions in the composition of matter. The manipulation of matter to "transform" it into other things was practice long before the reasons why these manipulations resulted in the transformations. Not only that, but the prescribed methods didn't always work, lending the possibility that something else was at work, something was missing.
The insight was that, put in modern terms, "chemistry matters." But just what chemistry was waited until the late 17th and 18th century to form, and based on all the practical work that was done to pursue the program of alchemy.
That insight wasn't simply European, as alchemy is pervasive in Asia, and South Asia, and more widely in other cultures.
And the basic program of alchemy had to do with what we would call "chemical" phenomena, such as the nature of metals (making lead into gold) but also in medicine, the creation of chemical compounds to allow for immortality, and as medicines to cure disease (originally, a universal medicine to cure any disease).
More spiritually, the "purification" of humans.
Wrapping all this up into one thing, the "philosopher's stone" which was embodied the "Theory of Everything" of its time. But interestingly, this stone was an object, some material, whose composition was thought to be discoverable.
that the program of alchemy failed to deliver any of the things it sought could be ignored, and that the transfer of that program from a literal task (to actually turn lead into gold) to a metaphorical one (where lead and gold are symbols representing what is "base" and what is "noble") was largely a European cultural appropriation, and one that, as MikeL points out, survives as our impression of alchemy.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 11, 2017 - 10:31am PT
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Dingus, nice to see you partook of the conversation. Fascinating topics, indeed, also a little scary (existence bias, the decision-making of a benevolent AI thought experiment, joy vs suffering in hyenas, rats and squids, lol, etc). As TM pointed out, truly a valuable platform SH has organized... and is orchestrating.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2017 - 10:37am PT
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To actually turn lead into gold was actually done in the long past by certain advanced individuals.
The modern materialistic scientists remain completely bewildered of how such material manipulation can actually be done due to their arrogance of higher knowledge ...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 11, 2017 - 10:42am PT
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^^^^.... how many self-proclaimed Messiases are there on earth today? ... ...and where are they found?....^^^^
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 11, 2017 - 11:32am PT
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MikeL, as you know, the treatment of "Alchemy" as an academic study is split into major camps, one being the "history of science" camp, the other the "spiritualist" camp. The split came in the 19th century revival of alchemy during a time where spiritualism became popular in Europe and America.
There's a third element here and that's the notion of the philosopher's stone as a manifestation of psychological concerns. The PS was the Holy Grail out of which life flows, a source for the energy of life and through it the reconciled understanding of being. To be without that source is to exist in the wasteland, a state of inauthenticity and melancholy. The PS and the grail stand as psychological connections of reconciliation to the tragedy of life in which the search for meaning (searching for the grail) leads us to an otherwise unobtainable release from the wasteland, a negative psychological state. To judge alchemy or the Tarot or medieval philosophy and thought in terms of its scientific accuracy misses the entire point, better to read T. S. Elliot or the story of Parzival. The message of Parzival being the joy of life is found in living out of the natural or inherent goodness of your humanity and that's how you find the grail and escape the wasteland. An idea, I would say, is scientifically accurate.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Sep 11, 2017 - 04:45pm PT
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If anyone recalls from earlier on in this thread, according to Herbert Dreyfus's 1964 Rand report, the new alchemists were those who said they could convert electric circuits into intelligence.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 11, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
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according to Herbert Dreyfus's 1964 Rand report, the new alchemists were those who said they could convert electric circuits into intelligence.
Getting intelligence from electric circuits sounds kind of close to what the brain already does. When it isn't busy wondering what's for supper, that is.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sep 11, 2017 - 08:45pm PT
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The PS and the grail stand as psychological connections of reconciliation to the tragedy of life in which the search for meaning (searching for the grail) leads us to an otherwise unobtainable release from the wasteland, a negative psychological state.
This is an existential, psychological analysis of those objects that tells us very little about their real meaning because it fails to include the historical context in any convincing way-- actually not at all.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 11, 2017 - 09:38pm PT
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Style over substance.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 11, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
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This is an existential, psychological analysis of those objects that tells us very little about their real meaning because it fails to include the historical context in any convincing way-- actually not at all.
The story of Parzival is the historical context and the stories meaning is quite obvious from a psychological perspective: the grail is achieved through the natural virtue of the individual.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2017 - 01:08am PT
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To judge alchemy or the Tarot or medieval philosophy and thought in terms of its scientific accuracy misses the entire point...
I don't think so, it is just that those parts of the alchemical program failed, what was left was the spiritual side, which was revived in the 19th century devoid of any claims on the science.
What misses the point is that alchemy was a system that sought to explain chemical transformation (before the idea of chemistry). A large part of this was based on those spiritual principles. In the end, spirituality had little to do with chemical transformation.
Alchemy took what was left, which was the allegorical "transformation."
Why is it the Philosopher's Stone?
I believe that was literally what the earliest alchemists sought.
and the Grail?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 12, 2017 - 05:56am PT
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MikeL,
(I’m aware of Csikszentmihalyi’s publications, as well as his students’ and colleagues'.)
Have you personally, subjectively experienced what you would call flow in any activity?
It seems you are unaware of the content and concepts within those publications to have ask, " Have you personally....
The content of Flow is quite mundane. Simply an organized mind carrying out a task. Likely a report of it would be boring.
But it necessitates a mind with some organization.
Flow rarely results in a peak experience but I suppose an occasion of flow could be a peak experience. From the wiki:
Historically, peak experience is associated with the psychological phenomenon flow. Peak experience is differentiated from flow due to a number of factors including subjective level of experience intensity: while peak experience denotes a high level of stimulation or euphoria, flow is not associated with an increased level of stimulation.[9] For further differentiation, see "Peak Experiences in Self-Actualization" below.
Maslow found religious folks most often report peak experiences. So you might ask Paul Roehl, "Have you personally, subjectively experienced what you would call peak experience in any activity"? Most of Maslow's studies were with religious folk.
And to the details, yes I have experienced euphoria [peak experience?] but no big deal; I certainly could live my whole life never needing or seeking euphoria but would rather operate in flow on an hourly basis.
FYI: Flow does not equal peak experience
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 12, 2017 - 06:34am PT
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HFCS,
Dingus, nice to see you partook of the conversation. Fascinating topics, indeed, also a little scary (existence bias, the decision-making of a benevolent AI thought experiment, joy vs suffering in hyenas, rats and squids, lol, etc). As TM pointed out, truly a valuable platform SH has organized... and is orchestrating.
I have listened to some parts of the Metzinger talk again. In particular the part about the idea of how we lack intuitive insight to grasp what could be a working platform for consciouness.
The background for that section begins around 33 min. and gets to intuitions at about 39 min.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 12, 2017 - 06:49am PT
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Easy to make fun of the Grail stories especially after Monty Python, but stories of courtly love and the celebration of individual experience from that period set western culture on a course that would eventually lead to the enlightenment. No one doubts the attempts at transmutation of material the missed point here is the importance of the allegorical and metaphorical influence that shaped western society during this period. One doesn’t enter Notre Dame in Paris and respond what a lame waste after all, instead they marvel at a great achievement of beauty and insight and they do so be they atheist or believer.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Sep 12, 2017 - 07:21am PT
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Dingus: Do you lack the intuition to understand consciousness?
Ha-ha. Why, yes! Apparently.
Ed,
Where did you get your information on alchemy? Books? Training? As an apprentice? Practice? You seem to be describing viewpoints from scientists or science-oriented people. Honestly, for the few studious practitioners that I know personally, they haven’t talked about “materials,” other than themselves. But, there’s not much I can tell you. It’s like religious experiences, I suppose, or meditation, or even some new ideas in management practices. What’s always mattered is mind, not materials.
Ditto, Paul.
Ward: . . . an existential, psychological analysis of those objects that tells us very little about their real meaning . . . .
Oh, do pray tell: what is their “real meaning?”
Dingus: The content of Flow is quite mundane. Simply an organized mind carrying out a task. Likely a report of it would be boring.
Right. And sitting in meditation is just sitting. :-) It’s just a concept. :-D And art is just putting paint on a canvas. And love and marriage is just a chemical and legal transaction. :-) And soloing El Cap is just movement on rock. :-) They are all just concepts.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2017 - 07:29am PT
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In the end, spirituality had little to do with chemical transformation.
Everything in the entire cosmic manifestation both material and spiritual all function due to the superior spiritual energies.
Without the superior spiritual energy, the source of everything period, the entire inferior material manifestation would never ever even exist ....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2017 - 09:22am PT
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Of course the discussion of alchemy bifurcates, and its history has lead it to abandon its earliest, and best, insight, that material stuff affects life itself. The insight lead to investigations of how that happens.
To deny this is simply ridiculous, really. The search for panaceas, or for the exilir of immortality, all of the programs of alchemy had to do with this mix of the properties of materials and the "spiritual nature" of humans.
That program failed, and early, in modern history and the connection abandoned. However, alchemy lent its techniques and discoveries to both chemistry and medicine.
If you are looking for an important legacy, I'd say that the sciences that resulted from that initial insight have an impact on humanity which is ubiquitous, where as the spiritual teachings seem to be much less apparent. The Holy Grail not withstanding...
So yes, I look at alchemy from a science perspective, would you expect it to be any different?
as for sense of awe inspired by the majesty of being in any cathedral, I cannot abandon my science viewpoint, even as it leads my sense of outrage over the acts committed by those who aggregated the resources to build them, the enslavement of the labor who actually built them on promises for rewards after death.
But when touring the Cathedral off of the Zócalo I was struck by the oddest of sensations, as the lamps hang a long ways from the roof, and are "leaning" apparently off plumb. This is not the case, rather, the entire building is sinking into the ground, asymmetrically. We learn that the foundation of the cathedral was built upon the ruined Aztec temples, an affectation by the Spanish conquers, who adapted the Aztec practice of building their temples on the ruins of their conquered.
When the remedy of the tipping was proposed, pumping concrete into the foundation to secure it, exploratory excavation revealed the ancient structures that lay underneath, and Mexican law require these antiquities be preserved in some manner.
The entirety of that history is more awesome than the empty belief that the architects of that church somehow were responsible for all of Western civilization.
And making fun of that pompous supposition is preferable to the stodgy recitation of dubious histories... in my humble opinion. When in a church, I feel no tug of piety, not in the least.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 12, 2017 - 10:08am PT
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as for sense of awe inspired by the majesty of being in any cathedral, I cannot abandon my science viewpoint, even as it leads my sense of outrage over the acts committed by those who aggregated the resources to build them, the enslavement of the labor who actually built them on promises for rewards after death.
The reason Ruskin called Gothic architecture the architecture of freedom is precisely because those laboring to build churches like Notre Dame were craftsman able to escape from the degradation of the feudal system to the freedom of the cities where they could make a good living plying their trade. Your knowledge of history reveals a bias not based in reality but rather a predilection for unexamined prejudices. A church especially a Cathedral was the center of life in a medieval city and a symbol of the corporate wealth and pride of that city beyond simply its religious significance. The Gothic period did much to elevate the western tradition as church building became an economic engine necessary for continuing on the road to the enlightenment.
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