Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2014 - 09:04am PT
Coming Soon!

Sketch will explain why his latest graph has any relevance to the subject of climate change.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2014 - 09:24am PT


A cherry pick that shows a severe seven-year cooling trend.


How about your graph Sketch. Can you explain what it means?
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Nov 4, 2014 - 09:24am PT
But... but.... but Perfesser Ed went to great lengths to invalidate OLS.

Try reading again, this time for comprehension. Ed didn't "invalidate OLS," he uses it himself when appropriate. He has pointed out the foolishness of projecting unphysical linear models into the future; and the infinite variety of nonlinear forms you could fit to the same data and also project, with no more justification, off into the future.

For the simplest possible within-sample summary of how two variables are related, OLS is a reasonable choice. It has no resistance to outliers and prefers Gaussian errors, so more robust linear methods sometimes work better, but that's another topic.

What if the sample relationship looks nonlinear? Personally I favor lowess (Locally WEighted Scatterplot Smoothing) regression when there's no theoretically specified curve, and use that in many of my examples. Why I think it works well, that's another topic too.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2014 - 09:31am PT
Derp, derp, derp.


This is pretty funny.


Sketch's reply when he doesn't have anything intelligent to write.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Nov 4, 2014 - 09:43am PT
Right. He used that argument to invalidate my use of the trendline, implying I used future projections to support my post, which was not true.

Wrong. You described this as invalidating OLS. The technique is fine, but like a car or anything else it can be used incompetently.

So, how about that "index"?

How about that? Why you imagine this is a gotcha, I have no clue.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2014 - 09:55am PT
Sketch
Nov 4, 2014 - 09:08am PT

It seems to have been relatively flat (read: NO WARMING) for at least 12 years.
    Sketch
It's interesting that you keep asking questions that have already been answered for you.
    k-man

Why the pissy reply?

And if you're going to claim "it's already been answered", please quote the relevant post(s).


OK Sketch, here you go.

Not so long ago, you asked the same question, and Chiloe answered it for you in simple, straight-forward terms.


Sketch
Jul 1, 2014 - 03:16pm PT

How much warming have we experienced in the last 17 years?

Answer: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=970221&msg=2439549#msg2439549



So that's why my pissy response to you; you keep asking the same questions, but ignore the responses.

Or, as you would say: Derp, derp, derp.
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Nov 4, 2014 - 10:39am PT
http://agreenroad.blogspot.com/2014/04/2014-list-of-45-global-tipping-points.html
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Nov 4, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Meanwhile, here is a FORTRAN least squares fit I wrote in 1974.

Cool! Back before statistical packages. I vividly recall going through that stage in my first graduate stats course...
 Here's a book about FORTRAN;
 Here's one about matrix algebra;
 Here's one on regression;
 Here's a boxfull of data; now
 Run multiple regression and write a paper!

It took so much time & effort to get that first regression run, seemed like it was gold. The concepts of regression criticism and diagnostic checks could not catch on until the cycle got much easier.

Nowadays anyone can run hundreds of regressions without having a clue what they are. Clueless regression results will mostly be nonsense, though, like we see about every day here.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Meanwhile, here is a FORTRAN least squares fit I wrote in 1974.

That Malemutt.

What a smart boy.



He said "There's been less air warming, and more ocean warming, than the mean of most models in earlier IPCC reports projected".

How much warming is that?

That Sketch.

Not so much.






Asking questions that have already been answered, and to which he already knows the answer.
That's not a sign of intelligence.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Nov 4, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
It's comical to see someone so educated miss obvious, simple points.

Clearly one of us is stupid.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 4, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
Any Colorado voters out there--please give some thought to voting for Gardner if you haven't yet voted and are still thinking about it.
Udall is a climber, so let's give him a chance to go climbing every day!
Let's also do our part to start shutting down the government funded climate-change "science" boondoggle and get some realistic energy policies in place.
(I don't have a problem with some reasonable government funding for climate change science if it could be done by reputable, actual scientists who are interested in finding out what may be going on in the world rather than pushing for some combination of further funding for themselves a left wing "utopia" for the masses. But from what I've read on this thread, I fear such an animal is as easy to find as Chiloe's South American goblins.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
I don't have a problem with some reasonable government funding for climate change science if it could be done by reputable, actual scientists...


Yeah, let's make Ted Cruz the Chair of the Subcommittee on Science and Space. That will show them liberal environmental Nazis.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Nov 4, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
I don't have a problem with some reasonable government funding for climate change science if it could be done by reputable, actual scientists...

powerful intellect you have there, bet you voted for Caribou Barbie to be one heartbeat away from being Commander in Chief....

but to my question, because I doubt you know what you are talking about

name the non reputable and non scientists that are currently making climate science contributions,
other than those who's views are aligned with your own (knee jerk, defensive, "conservative")

name em
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 4, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
name em

He's not exactly a scientist but the the Climate Audit guy http://climateaudit.org/
Steve McIntyre, seems to present an informed and balanced voice.
Even though he's Canadian, perhaps the US gov should engage him as a sort of inspector general over the scientists/"scientists."

I don't have time to say more now, gotta run now to drop of my ballot.
Want to make sure that Udall gets in plenty of climbing next year--would that Chiloe and Ed could join him!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Nov 4, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
engage him as a sort of inspector general over the scientists/"scientists

Yes, of course. Because trusting one person, tied to the political system, makes TONS more sense than the "inspector" system we have now...which you may have heard of...it's called "peer review".
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 4, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/southeast-early-opening-day-ski/36790016
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Nov 4, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
Thanks for the weather report, TGT.

Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Nov 4, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
Steve McIntyre, seems to present an informed and balanced voice.

Umm, no, far from it. McIntyre is popular among denialists for his political hatchet work, such as relentlessly picking at MBH98. McIntyre let Wegman grossly misrepresent his work to write an anti-MBH98 report to Congress; it took years for bloggers to figure out what McIntyre had actually done with his "persistent red noise" and the hockeyfest cherry pick. Meanwhile actual scientists, Mann among many others, continued with several generations of improving paleoclimatology, using a wide variety of alternative methods and data. For example, from the PAGES 2k network

(1) The most coherent feature in nearly all of the regional temperature reconstructions is a long-term cooling trend, which ended late in the 19th century.

 The regional rate of cooling varied between about 0.1 and 0.3°C per 1000 years.

 A preliminary analysis using a climate model indicates that the overall cooling was caused by a combination of decreased solar irradiance and increased volcanic activity, as well as changes in land cover and slow changes in the Earth’s orbit. The simulations show that the relative importance of each factor differs between regions.

(2) Temperatures did not fluctuate uniformly among all regions at multi-decadal to centennial scales. For example, there were no globally synchronous multi-decadal warm or cold intervals that define a worldwide Medieval Warm Period or Little Ice Age.

 The period from around 830 to 1100 CE generally encompassed a sustained warm interval in all four Northern Hemisphere regions. In contrast, in South America and Australasia, a sustained warm period occurred later, from around 1160 to 1370 CE.

 The transition to colder regional climates between 1200 and 1500 CE is evident earlier in the Arctic, Europe and Asia than in North America or the Southern Hemisphere.

 By around 1580 CE all regions except Antarctica entered a protracted, multi-centennial cold period, which prevailed until late in the 19th century.

 Cooler 30-year periods between the years 830 and 1910 CE were particularly pronounced during times of weak solar activity and strong tropical volcanic eruptions. Both phenomena often occurred simultaneously. This demonstrates how temperature changes over large regions are related to changes in climate-forcing mechanisms. Future climate can be expected to respond to such forcings in similar ways.

(3) The 20th century ranked as the warmest or nearly the warmest century in all regions except Antarctica. During the last 30-year period in the reconstructions (1971-2000 CE), the average reconstructed temperature among all of the regions was likely higher than anytime in nearly 1400 years. However, some regions experienced 30-year intervals that were warmer than 1971-2000. In Europe, for example, the average temperature between 21 and 80 CE was warmer than during 1971-2000.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 4, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
I've posted this before but some of you have poor memory or reading ability (or, most likely, both):
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21588069-scientific-research-has-changed-world-now-it-needs-change-itself-how-science-goes-wrong
How science goes wrong

Scientific research has changed the world. Now it needs to change itself
A SIMPLE idea underpins science: “trust, but verify”. Results should always be subject to challenge from experiment. That simple but powerful idea has generated a vast body of knowledge. Since its birth in the 17th century, modern science has changed the world beyond recognition, and overwhelmingly for the better.

But success can breed complacency. Modern scientists are doing too much trusting and not enough verifying—to the detriment of the whole of science, and of humanity. . . .

In any event, if we're lucky, the American legal process will compensate for the shortcomings of the broken "peer review" system, and Steyn will depose the living daylights out of Mann in connection with the lawsuit Mann filed.

Edit:
Here's a good opinion piece that appeared in The Washington Post that gives some flavor of the general perfidy of Mann. Readers of this thread will recognize the pro-Mann distortions as we get them on a regular basis from a certain "scientist"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/03/01/steve-mcintyre-was-michael-mann-exonerated-by-the-oxburgh-panel/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
Certainly interesting, but seems to be much ado about nothing. Note the relevant pieces of the puzzle:

Professor David Hand said that the research – led by US scientist Michael Mann – would have shown less dramatic results if more reliable techniques had been used to analyse the data… But the reviewers found that the scientists could have used better statistical methods in analysing some of their data, although it was unlikely to have made much difference to their results.

That was not the case with some previous climate change reports, where “inappropriate methods” had exaggerated the global warming phenomenon. Prof Hand singled out a 1998 paper by Prof Mann of Pennsylvania State University, a constant target for climate change sceptics, as an example of this. He said the graph, that showed global temperature records going back 1,000 years, was exaggerated – although any reproduction using improved techniques is likely to also show a sharp rise in global warming.

So yeah, they criticized Mann's methods, and Mann tried to clear his name.

But in the end, the results are much the same, no matter what technique is used for the analysis.
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