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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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But you earlier answered this one for us. Thanks to the vast potential of the Cosmos even such a mysterious event as a post from paul becomes inevitable.
Inevitability doesn't answer the question: why is the universe ordered in such a way that somethings will occur (life, consciousness) and somethings won't (magic)? The order is the determining factor, what the bible calls the logos. A mystery at best.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The order is the determining factor, what the bible calls the logos.
it's probably not so mysterious that it escapes explanation...
and I've written upthread about it... but alas, to no avail. Of course, I'm just a "Type A materialist" who probably can't express ideas in a sufficiently literary way to capture the imagination.
But maybe, from Paul's "logos" think of pre-Heraclitus Greek meaning, devoid of metaphorical reference and derived from λέγω (not the kids toy)... which is a reference to spoken words. But even if you refer to it in terms of "reason" think of logic...
then think about where logic comes from. Probably not so mysterious... and what logics are possible?
We need Gill here, and yanqui...
but were does that come from?
The structure of "nothing"
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WBraun
climber
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Magic was hucked into the dustbin by scientists
Of course, they hucked it because they are pussies and are afraid that so many of their silly mundane dead theories will be revealed as completely failed.
They only deal with the dead so there is never any magic ......
Their motto is: "There's no need for life" let's make everything artificial and robotic ......
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WBraun
climber
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"no one knows if that is true or not
That's total bullsh!t brainwashing by the blind gross materialists.
They all believe that horseshit and project it onto everything because they know they are ultimately clueless .....
If ""no one knows if that is true or not" then how the f_k would these clowns even know who knows or doesn't.
You can easily see the st00pid clueless retarded logic these clowns project onto everything by that retarded statement.
These clueless clowns think and masquerade themselves as god almighty and knowers of everything .......
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WBraun
climber
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I never subscribed to this bullsh!t of "no one knows if that is true or not".
It's YOU fools that keep saying everyone subscribes to it and no one knows.
You're so full of sh!t!
"No ONE knows" ... that is your nonsense, so stop projecting that onto everyone on this planet and the universe.
You don't know everyone and neither do your so called phony humble scientists who think they know everyone .....
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 10, 2017 - 05:20am PT
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Mike L,
As to flow, when I asked what your report of flow was, I was wondering what your personal experience is or has been while in a state of flow (when climbing) . . . not modeling, but subjectively how would you describe it? Where would your description fit between consciousness of phenomena and consciousness of self? (Jgill said where he was at with it.)
The flow process a la Mihaly has two parts, differentiation and integration. The flow experience is more at differentiation -- a battle against the entropy that brings disorder to the consciousness. Integration is bringing together the seemingly autonomous parts and results in making the self more complex.
Specifically you ask, Where would your description fit between consciousness of phenomena and consciousness of self? I suppose neither as there is no one home to say the likes of "I felt the redness of red". Things happen with little trace.
Mile L,
. Analogically, “Moore’s Law” .....
Brain cells are not likely to get any smaller and a comparison to the history of transistors getting smaller has little merit.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 10, 2017 - 07:40am PT
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The order is the determining factor, what the bible calls the logos. A mystery at best.
I love The Creation by Haydn. Especially the short dramatic bit where God divides the chaos into night and day. Also noteworthy on a different level is Haydn's self-confidence in tackling the subject.
Today, there is mathematics to help us understand how order and chaos are related. The mathematics explorations have a long history and are an important aid to understanding differences between order and disorder.
A mathematician's point of view written for a general audience:
http://www.henn.com/en/research/order-chaos
The mathematical study of chaotic systems also refines our idea of the notion of predictive power so important to science. Even for simple systems operating according to completely known rules there can be limits to how far ahead the behavior of the system can be exactly known.
In physics, quantum indeterminacy also restricts the predictions that can be made.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Sep 10, 2017 - 07:44am PT
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Ed: I'm sure MikeL will be less than enthused by this... but it just points out how we all can assume the mantle of expertise far from what our actual expertise (if we have any) would provide.
I agree with what you say about expertise, and somewhat enthusiastically.
Jim’s wife: "no one knows if that is true or not, presently, but it's a good question".
Great attitude. :-) Questions are fun, too.
Jim: . . . no one has turned lead into gold yet.
Alchemy is not about turning lead into gold. That’s a very very poor understanding, sort of like saying that poetry is about same sounding words. Alchemy is primarily spiritual. “Lead to gold” is an analogy about personal transmutation. It concerns the soul, from ignorance to enlightenment. The discipline is highly cryptic. Just like the symbols on a dollar bill. Various fields of science in the past have borrowed notions for their own purposes. Art also uses alchemy in some ways (e.g., in surrealism).
Dingus,
(I’m aware of Csikszentmihalyi’s publications, as well as his students’ and colleagues'.)
Have you personally, subjectively experienced what you would call flow in any activity?
No, neurons are not likely to get smaller. One thing about seeing reality as purely physical is that it tends to erect boundaries and limits almost everywhere because “things” are seen as substantial and immutable. Pure (non-physical) mind does not do that.
The size of a brain may not matter nearly as much as greater density connections (to / among everything).
In a highly cited article, Miller in 1956 provided evidence that people could only distinguish empirically (with their senses) among 7 different sensations, with little variance. (see: http://cogprints.org/730/1/miller.html); Herbert Simon later said that people could distinguish and remember far more information if they “chunked” data (up to as many as 150 data points). Stage players, for example, showed this with mnemonic devices when they could name every person in an audience. (Chunks are densely / highly associated connected information clusters.)
Size has always been seen somewhat of a positive, magical, powerful notion in many fields of study, but at their base, they expose a purely physical orientation. Slowly but surely, however, each has fallen to greater understanding of greater means of organization and more expansive or intensive ways of seeing.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2017 - 08:35am PT
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Jim: . . . no one has turned lead into gold yet.
Always making absolutes. Modern science does NOT make absolutes.
It's been done many times.
The gross materialist can't do it at all.
They have no clue how to do it and are prohibited from doing it.
It takes a higher power that the gross materialists always say there is no need for it.
Just see the lunacy of their foolish consciousness at work ....
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 10, 2017 - 09:15am PT
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MikeL,
Dingus,
(I’m aware of Csikszentmihalyi’s publications, as well as his students’ and colleagues'.)
Have you personally, subjectively experienced what you would call flow in any activity?
I am not sure if I have subjectively experienced flow but I do know that one has to have a task that is not so simple as to produce boredom and not so difficult as to make one feel anxiety while attempting to stay in flow. Acquiring more skill at doing the flow producing task can reduce anxiety for difficult tasks and sometime make the task so easy as to be boring.
One thing about seeing reality as purely physical is that it tends to erect boundaries and limits almost everywhere because “things” are seen as substantial and immutable. Pure (non-physical) mind does not do that.
Pure (non-physical) mind does not to that .
What the hell good is it? There are places where understanding boundaries and rates is useful. While driving their cars, 2 libertarians [of pure mind] approached each other at right angles in a 4-way stop situation.
I know you & I could fly. Have you tried jumping from the top of a very tall building?
the Smoking Duck must have pure mind?
Seems like pure mind would keep you from getting a grip on reality?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 10, 2017 - 09:38am PT
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Alchemy is not about turning lead into gold. That’s a very very poor understanding, sort of like saying that poetry is about same sounding words. Alchemy is primarily spiritual. “Lead to gold” is an analogy about personal transmutation. It concerns the soul, from ignorance to enlightenment. The discipline is highly cryptic. Just like the symbols on a dollar bill. Various fields of science in the past have borrowed notions for their own purposes.
I think this is a very modern interpretation, at least as said in these words.
In particular, the separation of the "occult" from what we might now term as "the real world" was not as clear when the alchemists were trying to do what they were, that is, find a way to create gold.
The people who actually have transmuted elements from other elements have done so without the need to resort to anything spiritual or occult, they did it based on a firm understanding of physical theory.
And the notion of the transmutation of elements was finally discredited with the work of Dalton in the 18th century. The various "ideas" and "philosophies" of the alchemists became available for re-appropriation, and as MikeL points out none of that was applicable to the original goal of the "program" to make gold from lead. Chemistry demonstrated that it was not possible to do by chemical means, Radio-chemistry demonstrated how it could be done by "nuclear" means, but of course that had to wait for the discovery and explanation of radio-activity.
The word "alchemy" has a far different meaning now than it did originally.
This fallacy, equivocation, is often found in posts to this thread.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
a good depiction of what goes on in this thread.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 10, 2017 - 10:44am PT
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The people who actually have transmuted elements from other elements have done so without the need to resort to anything spiritual or occult, they did it based on a firm understanding of physical theory.
And who knows? The same may one day be said of people who have transmuted brain into mind.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 10, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
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MikeL,
Have you personally, subjectively experienced what you would call flow in any activity?
Yes, at least once while kayaking on a river and then on a bigger river I thought I experienced more flow. Who knows?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 10, 2017 - 04:22pm PT
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A test of Zen serenity: The Equifax data breach.
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beerlyman
Social climber
State of Confusion
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Sep 10, 2017 - 08:34pm PT
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It is what is
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 11, 2017 - 05:06am PT
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thanks HFCS,
affordable landscape
lowest attentional agency
GAP AWARENESS
systems of mortality denial
existence bias
proto thoughts
mind wanderings
introspective neglect
cravings 4 existence
Oh MikeL,
Do you suffer from gap awareness?
Do [you [edit]] lack the intuition to understand consciousness?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Sep 11, 2017 - 07:06am PT
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Ed and Jim,
Let’s use more than dictionaries to point out meanings. A little reading beyond those might be useful. There are differences in understanding among the naive, novices, and experts. An expert, according to Simon and Anders, is about 50,000 chunks of information, and it generally takes 10 years to develop in almost every field.
I’m surprised how much people rely upon dictionaries here. I see it every time one of the materialists tell me what religions have to say. It’s a form of ignorance to tell a practitioner what they know or what they believe.
If you want to cite history of something as old as alchemy, go back and do some reading before, let’s say, the 19th Century.
Dingus: What the hell good is [pure mind]?
Always the instrumentalist, hmmmm?
What the hell "good" is anything intrinsically? (You can make up all sorts of answers for any “thing.”)
affordable landscape . . . lowest attentional agency . . . GAP AWARENESS . . . systems of mortality denial . . . existence bias . . . proto thoughts . . . mind wanderings . . . introspective neglect . . . cravings 4 existence
Can you recognize these as concepts? Just like “flow,” when you have an experience of a “thing,” you see that its concept falls far short of the experience.
What is the concept of “climbing,” and next what is your experience of it? In flow, can the experience be described fully, accurately, or completely?
Do lack the intuition to understand consciousness?
???? (Grammar can be helpful.)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 11, 2017 - 07:44am PT
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What is the concept of “climbing,”
What is your concept of "concept?"
Climbing has often been described well, in my opinion. I just had a look at the Shadows of Doubt account by Michael Kennedy which Ed posted a while ago.
Fully, finally (or accurately), and completely? According to who? What difference would it make?
The nearest approach to your request is found in mathematics.
Many descriptions of climbing are good enough for me and it seems odd to ask for a full, final (or accurate), complete description.
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