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WBraun
climber
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Apr 19, 2008 - 09:34pm PT
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Hahahahahahaha, .... too funny Klaus, .... too funny.
You really slipped up there Bob D'
Hahahahaha LOL
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 19, 2008 - 09:41pm PT
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Werner wrote: Hahahahahahaha, .... too funny Klaus, .... too funny.
You really slipped up there Bob D'
Hahahahaha LOL
Werner...no slip at all...why would it be important to remove them...to show what??
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 19, 2008 - 10:39pm PT
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Like you said: "In the big picture it means little to nothing."
To place them or remove them.
I just thought it was funny, maybe you didn't.
To paraphrase in the theme of .....; "In the big picture it means little to nothing."
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Apr 19, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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I am probably going to catch hell from some people, but...
...let any one poster on this thread step up and claim that they did a FA (even one) in ‘real’ style, whatever that is.
Pots calling kettles black.
There is also something about those who live in glass houses and throwing stones. Who am I to judge?
I cannot judge whether Growing Up was done in a good style or bad style, as I am a piss poor climber.
But jaysus, 1,600 posts plus on this thread, am I missing something or what? What about the starving children in China, or is that Appalachia? Nevermind much of Africa.
I’m going climbing.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 19, 2008 - 11:38pm PT
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Patrick - we are knott here to save the world - this is a climbing forum.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 20, 2008 - 12:30am PT
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FREAKY!?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 20, 2008 - 04:51am PT
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Joe,
> My argument isn't that bolt replacement is unethical - it's that rapping in to replace the bolts, while still maintaining a ground-up ethical stance, is hypocritical and undercuts the whole ground-up argument. I got into this same argument last year with whoever it was who was going to rap bolt Space Babble
It was me. (work still to be done; my partner was not here when the route went into condition, am trying again this spring with fewer distractions....).
> as part of a campaign to uphold old school ground-up tradition and ethics...I was saying that you can't have your cake and eat it too, that you're either for rap bolting or against it, that Bachar's routes in Tuolumne got rebolted ground-up, etc. I personally do not care how any bolt that was ever drilled got where it was; either way the result is the same - a rock with bolts.
OK, I'll try to explain my side of it again:
 ground-up style is for first ascent only. Period.
It does not matter how subsequent ascents are done. It does not matter how rebolting is done.
Those are both independent of what was done on the first ascent.
If John Bachar bolts Bachar-Yerian on lead, and later person X (Dave Schultz, I think?) replaces the bolts on rappel, how is that hypocritical for Bachar? Bachar already did his job when the FA was done.
If you are saying Schultz should have replaced on lead if he was a true ground-up climber, that is a statement about a style of a repeat ascent, and about style of rebolting. It is not a statement about the style of the first ascent.
I could elaborate more on ground-up first ascent style, but perhaps you can respond on whether the first ascent style is independent of styles for later ascents. I'm curious about your line of reasoning. Last year I thought you were just trolling.
[Edit for Omega: by "ground-up style is for first ascents only", I meant that style is how the bolt locations are determined - from the perspective of leading the route. It's similar to the perspective of people repeating the route. I didn't mean to imply that people repeating the climb should not onsight it. (not sure if that is what your objection is)]
[Edit for Joe Hedge: I think your objection to rap rebolting may be that the resulting route is a combination of bolt locations chosen on lead with bigger bolts placed on rappel. There is something to that, but it does not equate to bolt locations chosen after previewing the route (on rappel / toprope). The ground-up leader FA team still gets the onsight adventure, if they are placing 1/4" or 3/8". I suppose it could be argued that they would get a better adventure by placing 3/8" or 1/2" or larger from stance. But I think most of the adventure is the onsight component.]
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The Doctor
Social climber
Da Bronx
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Apr 20, 2008 - 09:52am PT
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I was just wondering, out of the last 1665 posters, how many of you have ever put up a multi-pitch FA, any where, in any style. As far as new routes in The Valley it seems like Sean Jones is about the only climber left with the vision, talent and motivation to make it happen. All the photos I have seen of his routes near Ribbon Falls have bolts and they look great. Is there anyone out there that would like to try GU with me this fall and check it out for themselves instead of playing with themselves on the Super tACO, tHE dR.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 10:29am PT
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coz wrote
"I really think you are a bunch of white men wanting it all now, spirit out the window.
Go ahead and destroy the last great places, so all can enjoy.
I am out.
Growing up is material bullsh#t, I hope when the Kali Yuga ends, something remains.
No peace, "
Pretty harsh judgment Coz. Since you're such a strict ethicist, can you explain why you didn't return to do a continuous ascent of Southern Belle. Surely it's a convenience and also a "Cheat" if you jug past some of the hardest pitches on the day you FA the upper route. If the route is so fine, why not do it ground up in a push? Or is it really so deadly you couldn't roll the dice on it yourself one more time?
I hope you're not signing out without the Southern Belle trip report. Folks on both side of the debate would enjoy it, and not just to nitpick.
But I'm not sure I got the nitpicking details from what was already posted. After you jugged the fixed lines on the final push, did you drop them and return later to pick them up, or carry them up the route with you?
I'm only bringing this up because of all the judgement heaped on GU. Resting for a week in a cozy bed and jugging the cruxes on the way to finishing the FA of a free climb still seems like an infringement on this proud principle of starting at the bottom of a rock and climbing it. It's another form of engineering.
Peace
Karl
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nevenneve
Trad climber
St. Paul, MN
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Apr 20, 2008 - 10:56am PT
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I might phrase it different, but Coz made some pretty common sense statements. I've never had the chance to try a .13 slab but it surely doesn't hurt me to believe that there is someone out there put together well enough to see their way through. I doubt this thread would be this prominent if others didn't feel that this was setting a precedent and worthy of some reflection. I would hold the route in more respect if it had been ground up. Even in an age of the mechanical advantage, craftmanship is irreplaceable. Oh well, the circus master found a way to warm some seats before the summer crowds get drawn into the big top.
As for the "improvement" Coz brought up, even if a collective movement effectively took enough money out of the pool there still remains some pretty drastic social changes to correct the mindset. I imagine few rapist could blame the lack of something they feel they need for forcefully going after the prize even if it lacks the full reward. The few I met seemed rather meek and quite unprepossessed. Overall, far from having anger drive them on to further deeds.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 20, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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Let coz rant, he likes it.
Why always try and feed him all this bullsh#t.
And Doctor, just for and example to you, I've done 2 multi-pitch FA with Coz, and only placed 1 bolt on lead for those 2 multi-pitch routes, yeah BFD. I made coz place that one bolt, he didn't want to and I could forsee the potential for what was going to happen if he fell.
He fell, and he was glad the sucker was in there after he placed it.
Blah blah blah blah, what else you wanna know?
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Ω
climber
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Apr 20, 2008 - 11:42am PT
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Clint says " ground-up style is for first ascent only. Period. "
Bullsh*it, Who made you God and that is why you will never excel at climbing!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 11:49am PT
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Werner wrote
"Let coz rant, he likes it.
Why always try and feed him all this bullsh#t. "
We are all sharing in the great cycle of bullsh#t. We all "like" it
Peace
Karl
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 20, 2008 - 12:21pm PT
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Coz, I am disappointed.
I'm all about spirit. I climb for it. And I like to spread it around. It's one of the big reasons I'm a guide. (Sure isn't the money; hard way to make a meager living.) But the smiles, the excitement, the serenity, a shift in someone's life -- pretty cool.
Snake Dike is the most spirited route on HD. More climbers face more fear at their level, more lives are tempered by rising to that occasion. More joy, more serenity, more transcendence. Gobs of each.
Of course I'm talking democratic here, and of course you're talking elitist. But there's room for both. Spreading the wealth on Snake Dike takes nothing away from how badass Southern Belle was for you and still is. It's gotten more elite Since the FA, your FFA, Caylor's disaster and the second ascent. The legend grows. And its stature is increased again by Growing Up.
Southern Belle is a high water mark in the history of runout free climbing in Yosemite -- and around the world. It stands as a measure of one dimension of spirit, way out at the ragged edge of what's humanly possible. Very cool.
But I like to respect spirit, and encourage it, wherever I find it. For an agoraphobic (literally, fear of the marketplace), opening the front door is already runout and stepping into the street can take years of courage. Not the same world I live in, but I can honor it in its context just as I honor your climb in yours.
It reminds me in a way of John Bachar, standing by a gas pump in Tuolumne, cornered by someon'e rap of "you're crazy to solo," just looking calmly back at the guy and saying: "You're soloing right now."
I'm gonna catch it, again, for getting all public-servicy on you here, but don't forget I'm a guide: I take other people's experience seriously in my professional life. And if it spills over into my personal life, if you catch me by the trailside giving beta to some stranger because it might reduce his danger, encourage her experience, even nourish an opportunity for some spirit to develop -- well, deal with it. No skin off anyone's selfish ass.
I'm excited about Growing Up because it opens up opportunity for spirit to blossom where none existed before. Or we could downshift that to a chance to have fun if this is getting a bit highfalutin'. You framed it as spirit; I'm comfortable running with that.
That chance for fun or opportunity for spirit is a little more democratic than on Southern Belle. And a lot more elite than Snake Dike. It's there for a few of today's climbers, and a lot more of tomorrow's. Like some of the folks whose spirits are raised this summer on Snake Dike will return in 2014 to test their considerably improved mettle on Growing Up, and may yet be back two years after that for a career highlight ascent of Southern Belle.
That's damn sure not me. I'll never lead either of those climbs. Way out of my league. I can aspire to doing some of the upper pitches of GU. And I'll probably lead the first pitch too, since I like Valley cracks.
But I did step up and help with the decisions that went into Growing Up. And once they were made, I put a lot of sweat, and the cost of some stainless bolts, and some blisters on my hammer hand into creating the climb.
Yes, it makes the South Face of Half Dome a less elite place, and a less solitary place. Yes, our community gets to deal with the access problems that go with it. We've already started. We put up ducks to mark what we think is the best trail last summer, for instance, after becoming -- quite incidental fallout from our passion for this route -- the local experts on the terrain below the face.
I'm good with that too. More opportunity for more spirit for more climbers. And I happen to know -- again, incidental to my passion -- that there is a huge wilderness out beyond Half Dome with thousands of routes waiting. Longer approach, but you can handle it. For practical purposes it's several generations worth of opportunity just waiting out there for exploration, adventure, and developing the human spirit.
Have fun.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 01:16pm PT
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Long runouts aren't Caylor's only claim to fame I hear...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 20, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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it is amazing that the FA team was not smart enough to realize that this would be very controversial. to hear DR still trying to pathetically justify the climbs existence when it sounded like he was mostly a porter and a high angle expansion bolt installer. WTF?
btw, for Docter and Patrick, yes i have done FA of multipitch gu routes. tried to do them in the style of clean climbing i am sure that DR remembers that. BFD does that qualify me for this sh#t storm on ST?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 20, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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Of course we knew it would be controversial.
Predicted what the objections would be too -- not rocket science.
And then with all that in mind, and more, we made our best decision.
Not pathetic to me. I'm proud.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 01:53pm PT
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If I were to hold the rope for the Doctor of Chiropractic on one of his multi-pitch GU FA's,
could I per chance raise my status from "hanger on" to belay slave, or Sub-Man Supreme™?
Would that mean I had earned the necessary clout to talk shít on the internets?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 20, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
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Hey Doc,
Yeah, some of Sean's other routes in the Valley (and beyond) are stellar! Too bad the new guide's not out, or more people would realize that. (Though I hear the guide's on its way, two monts or less.) Those Ribbon Falls routes are big Grade Vs partly bolted up steep aretes -- their position is outstanding. And one over by Bridalveil, I think it's called Momma, again takes a line with incredible position. One Reeder shot at a 5.12 crux shows that so well it's been reprinted several places. Including the cover of some catalog (Metolius maybe?).
Not sure why Sean doesn't like to say "proud" (modest maybe?), but whatever, those are fine modern free climbing lines that I think are destined to become classics.
And that's just the ones in the Valley...
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The Doctor
Social climber
Da Bronx
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Apr 20, 2008 - 02:18pm PT
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Hey Knott, sub-man supreme sounds good to me. I didn't know one needed any qualifications to spout on the internet.Carry On, The Dr.
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