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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 31, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
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Escopeta has a point about govt limiting access to certain places. Think back country or Half Dome permits as one small example.
On the other hand, my family was run off clearly marked BLM land by a rancher, because he paid grazing fees there, he treated it as his own. Quite common in NM. All things considered, I prefer the govt.
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kattz
climber
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Jan 31, 2016 - 02:57pm PT
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Revolution without guns, dildos and massive amount of doughnuts eaten. I think these guys didn't have their vanilla creamer demands met:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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franky
Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
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Jan 31, 2016 - 04:52pm PT
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Escopeta has a point about govt limiting access to certain places. Think back country or Half Dome permits as one small example.
On the other hand, my family was run off clearly marked BLM land by a rancher, because he paid grazing fees there, he treated it as his own. Quite common in NM. All things considered, I prefer the govt.
I wouldn't call that a point since he is comparing the feds to other land owners.
Unless you own it yourself, the feds are the least restrictive land owner there is. Obviously there are limits on certain public uses that some people disagree with, but all those limits have to be justified in some way. I don't want to speculate about what Half Dome would be like if it were privately owned.
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kattz
climber
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Jan 31, 2016 - 05:18pm PT
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Regarding Half Dome permits....since everyone in Bay area or visiting from Europe seems to have a checkbox in their personal achievement list that they must "ascend Half Dome"...and from very tight lines on cables, with someone occasionally dropping down (with domino effect potential)...if entire uncontrolled horde of tourists headed to Half Dome at once, during certain summer times...would be no good for anyone. (I'm sure some'd be suing the Park for wrongful death, eventually!) There's a notorious private mountain on Central California coast (forgot it's name), where the owner put no trespassing signs all over and was patrolling the mountain all day in search of hikers (there were some easement disputes)...this is what private Half Dome would be like...with some overseas billionaire house on top of it, where they'd get using a helicopter.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
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Such bullsh!t ^^^^
You people are insane .....
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kattz
climber
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Jan 31, 2016 - 06:56pm PT
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Oh, by the way, where I grew up (outside the US) one could easily:
1) be attacked, tortured, killed, etc by a gang of thugs once go hiking in the woods, mostly public land...that's because the government didn't give rat's tail about what's going on out out there. Considering you couldn't carry gun in most cases, you had to know how to use an axe, knife and other handy items. Broken bottle was a weapon of choice, as I recall. Like one against five, or against their hunting rifle. Full freedom!
2) find garbage, trash anywhere
3) massive poaching and illegal tree cutting. If you complain, you'd get killed. (could happen to rangers themselves) May be have animal liver or guts nailed to your house door first, for a warning, though. Or, get your house burned (no, no cruel mandatory sentences for arson!--most arsons went unpunished). Whole villages burned sometimes (with whoever didn't have time to get away). Those winds can be really fast. Full on freedom from the government!
Did I mention your rescue being your sole responsibility? Or lone drivers taken from empty forest roads by the gangs?
US public lands are super safe (even with all the growers, who mostly mind own business) and I hope they stay this way, they must be doing something right at this point. Not everywhere, not in every instance, of course, but overall. This is afforded by strong government action plus 2nd amendment protection, and not by everyone being beneficial and kind, free and peace-loving! The overpopulation + open border policy is the sole cause of all extra-strong restrictions (like ones for Half Dome) that are in place: it'll only get worse if population continues to increase.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jan 31, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
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it'll only get worse if population continues to increase.
Ain't that the truth. Quick... get neutered now!
Better yet, make neutering mandatory with prison sentences.
He is accusing us all of GUILT, in the middle of a rant about assuming GUILT when one is convicted by a jury
I'm trying the Trump approach. It gets people's attention. Sucker.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jan 31, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
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My god, if someone that didn't even grow up here is carrying water for .gov, we are doomed.
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kattz
climber
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Jan 31, 2016 - 07:28pm PT
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No need to neuter yourself, I thought humans could control their urges without being surgically altered, unlike animals. Contraception is available and cheap, and there's voting mechanism in place to influence policies. (оr, one day, there'll be a thread about occupying public lands on Mars)
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 31, 2016 - 07:52pm PT
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escopeta! Re your post:
My god, if someone that didn't even grow up here is carrying water for .gov, we are doomed.
All is not lost! Movement to bastions of anti-government domination like the Sudan, are still open for you. Otherwise, your desire to escape .gov, in something other than a 3rd world shithole, could possibly be futile.
Idaho, where we always vote Republican for president, is probably as good as it gets for conservatives escaping from California.
Jest leave our public lands alone, ok?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 31, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
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I didn't say I disagreed with permits at all. I only said that there wasn't free access to everyone all the time. Sheesh.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 31, 2016 - 11:29pm PT
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Jest leave our public lands alone, ok?
Too late. The Feds (we the people of the United States ) own 61.6% of Idaho.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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the BLM HQ in Burns is flying the Gadsden rattler flag.
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jonnyrig
climber
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No need to neuter yourself, I thought humans could control their urges without being surgically altered, unlike animals. Contraception is available and cheap, and there's voting mechanism in place to influence policies
Conservatives, in general, and the types who support the militias, in general, don't much believe in contraception. You ever look at the data for whose kids generally end up pregnant? Go ask Sara Palin about that. I'm sure you'll get an interesting answer.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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katz posted Oh, by the way, where I grew up (outside the US) one could easily:
1) be attacked, tortured, killed, etc by a gang of thugs once go hiking in the woods, mostly public land...that's because the government didn't give rat's tail about what's going on out out there. Considering you couldn't carry gun in most cases, you had to know how to use an axe, knife and other handy items. Broken bottle was a weapon of choice, as I recall. Like one against five, or against their hunting rifle. Full freedom!
2) find garbage, trash anywhere
3) massive poaching and illegal tree cutting. If you complain, you'd get killed. (could happen to rangers themselves) May be have animal liver or guts nailed to your house door first, for a warning, though. Or, get your house burned (no, no cruel mandatory sentences for arson!--most arsons went unpunished). Whole villages burned sometimes (with whoever didn't have time to get away). Those winds can be really fast. Full on freedom from the government!
Did I mention your rescue being your sole responsibility? Or lone drivers taken from empty forest roads by the gangs?
US public lands are super safe (even with all the growers, who mostly mind own business) and I hope they stay this way, they must be doing something right at this point. Not everywhere, not in every instance, of course, but overall. This is afforded by strong government action plus 2nd amendment protection, and not by everyone being beneficial and kind, free and peace-loving! The overpopulation + open border policy is the sole cause of all extra-strong restrictions (like ones for Half Dome) that are in place: it'll only get worse if population continues to increase.
Escopeta responded My god, if someone that didn't even grow up here is carrying water for .gov, we are doomed.
Lamenting the lack of gangs and trash on public lands in this thread.
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franky
Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
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Survival, I wasn't trying to be disagreeable. I don't think a rational person would argue that there shouldn't be some kind of control on access to federal land.
Escopeta seems to argue that federal land is too restrictive and they arbitrarily close it to citizens, and that there is some unseen power hungry bureaucrat who wants his/her agency to own everything and totally close it to public use.
I would argue that it is the least restrictive land of all, and closures represent best efforts at compromise between the many groups of concerned citizens who have different ideas about management, balanced against what the science says is sustainable use.
So pointing out that there is regulation on federal lands is in line with either side of the discussion.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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franky, no worries. I gotcha.
Like I said in my post about his point, I prefer the feds.
I still can't get over the fact that my family was chucked off PUBLIC LAND by a rancher because he thought the place was his because he paid fees. My wife was steaming, and I did discuss it with the guy, but I wasn't willing to get confrontational. He had friends with him, and we had kids with us, and we were a long way from anywhere. Made me extremely mad too, but there was lots of land to play on out there, so the smartest choice at that moment was just to split and let him believe that he was Ben Cartright....
BONANZAGHAZI!!!
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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This is all going to make for some of the best South Park Episodes ever!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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the smartest choice at that moment was just to split and let him believe that he was Ben Cartright....
Bruce, Ben Cartright might have ridden over to check on you if he saw you on his land, but once he realized you weren't cattle rustlers or horse thieves, he'd have probably told you to have a great day, and to stop in at the house on your way out to share a meal.
And it would have been his land, not federal land that he was kicking you out of at gunpoint. At least I think Ben owned that ranch, and wasn't illegally grazing his cattle on it and not paying the fees.
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