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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 12, 2015 - 02:09pm PT
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Really, Jan? Show us the data that correlates atheism to economic and educational status in America to support your statement. My guess is that it's pure hooey, but I'm willing to change my mind if presented proof otherwise.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 12, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
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Let's look at what can and has been measured (it seems that a whole lot of concepts that have not or cannot be measured are being thrown on the table, here).
1: Religiosity. As measured by surveys, only Poland, Italy, Portugal, Greece, Moldova, and Bosnia/Herz. exceed the United States here (Europe only considered - but we find the US exceeds other first world nations elsewhere). Therefore, the vast majority of Europe - many nations substantially so, than the United States.
2: Morality by nation. Obviously, a more complex and difficult thing to measure, but lets look at 3 measures for starters: Violent crime, the quality of health care, and income disparity.
In all three measures, the US - on top of the list for religiosity, is near the bottom (that is - worse) in comparison to other European nations. I didn't measure propensity for warfare - the US clearly leads the world here by a wide, wide margin. It owns nearly half the world's weaponry, and its military is larger than the next 10 nations combined. Recent US invasions require no introduction.
Therefore, I would posit that 'moral behavior' and 'religiosity' are not positively correlated, and may, in fact, be negatively correlated.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 12, 2015 - 02:32pm PT
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Here's the first article I came across when I googled atheists and education (written by an atheist). He also makes the very valid point that just because they are better educated and wealthier doesn't mean that they aren't discriminated against.
http://atheism.about.com/od/excusingantiatheistbigotry/a/Privileged.htm
And here's a blog about a really interesting looking new study of atheists which admits right away that they are more educated than the average person in America.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/blackwhiteandgray/2013/04/atheists-in-america-part-1/
As for morality, I agree with you tvash but we have to realize that is our definition of morality. Others would cite the rates of premarital sex or abortion as signs of our lack of morality. That of course leads us back to the interesting argument of whether morality is innate and if so what is it?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 12, 2015 - 02:38pm PT
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OK, I'll buy that, Jan. It obviously makes sense. One would assume the more educated a person is, the better their analysis skills. And the veracity of religious claims certainly doesn't stand up to even cursory analysis.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 12, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
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I can tell you from personal experience that capuchin monkeys will worship you if you have a banana, but that doesn't prevent them from stealing it when you're not looking.
The worship doesn't last, however. Plan B is to attack you for it.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 12, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
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Once more with feeling. This has been my (limited) thesis all along:
Let's look at what can and has been measured (it seems that a whole lot of concepts that have not or cannot be measured are being thrown on the table, here).
1: Religiosity. As measured by surveys, only Poland, Italy, Portugal, Greece, Moldova, and Bosnia/Herz. exceed the United States here (Europe only considered - but we find the US exceeds other first world nations elsewhere). Therefore, the vast majority of Europe - many nations substantially so, than the United States.
2: Morality by nation. Obviously, a more complex and difficult thing to measure, but lets look at 3 measures for starters: Violent crime, the quality of health care, and income disparity.
In all three measures, the US - on top of the list for religiosity, is near the bottom (that is - worse) in comparison to other European nations. I didn't measure propensity for warfare - the US clearly leads the world here by a wide, wide margin. It owns nearly half the world's weaponry, and its military is larger than the next 10 nations combined. Recent US invasions require no introduction.
Therefore, I would posit that 'moral behavior' and 'religiosity' are not positively correlated, and may, in fact, be negatively correlated.
Any counterarguments? We've got the historical one (Europe used to be religious, and therefore gains its morality from that. It also used to burn people at the stake for heresy, so I'm not sure how strong an argument that really is.
In our own history, it is the principles embodied in the Bill of Rights that guides our collective morality. These hail largely from secular ideas. Take the central tenet of egalitarianism. This is NOT a Christian idea at all - given the Christian's cherished Chosen/Damned - Us/Them doctrine, it's strong, historical support for slavery, subjugating native peoples, discriminating against homosexuals.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Jan 12, 2015 - 03:00pm PT
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Here's a nice little thought experiment: Imagine a society of sociopaths. Sociopaths tend to be intelligent and of course manipulative. Would the society evolve to one governed by game theory? By brute force? By highly intelligent organizers? What kind of "moral structure" would evolve?
Of course these societies already exist in prison settings where inmates are allowed to socialize, but there they are to some extent controlled by prison regulations. Jan, have you studied such mini-societies?
Street gangs are under looser control by criminal laws. Mexican drug cartels are only lightly controlled if at all, but those organizations probably contain a mix of true sociopaths and the poor and disenfranchised.
Just a thought . . .
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 12, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
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The problem with all social science research is that there are just so many variables. It seems like Callie (Crimpergirl) would be the one to answer your question though. I've specialized in societies that were the very reverse of sociopathic - tightly knit, highly religious Buddhists, who together faced a very hostile physical environment - a totally different situation
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 12, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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Want to know how a sociopathic sub culture would behave?
I give you Wall Street. It's the Great Attractor.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 12, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
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Good one about Wall Street tvash!
And it also proves my point that just because some Homo sapiens are very intelligent, doesn't mean they'll play nice.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 12, 2015 - 04:18pm PT
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From an evolutionary perspective, the switch from a vegetarian to a meat diet enabled Homo to become more intelligent, which in turn enabled them to become better apex predators - in other words, not very nice.
That was a byproduct of climate change and an altered environment from wet (lots of vegetarian eats) to dry (not so much).
And therein lies the rub - morality and social/physical evolution is heavily shaped by environment - whether in prehistoric Africa, prisons, the arctic, or modern suburbs.
A suburban American will give to charity, treat the people around them with love and respect - while voting for war and consuming more resources and putting more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere per capita than any other people on earth.
Contrast that with a typical southern Caribbean islander - typically underemployed and therefore 'lazy' by American standards - a moral failing in our eyes - but they don't go to war with anyone nor do they denude their island environment from over-consumption.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 12, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
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That of course leads us back to the interesting argument of whether morality is innate and if so what is it?
It is really the lack of definition that causes so much confusion on this thread.
What is God? Benevolent interfering force concerned with every sparrow or ultimate universal force, unthinking and oblivious to our needs? What is morality? innate behaviors that provide evolutionary success or commandments from some mountain top?
You gotta define your terms.
But the notion that theology wasn't fundamental in the establishment of contemporary liberal morality and government, liberal in the sense that these things are not dictated by the aristocracy or the church, seems "silly."
A quick walk around the mall in DC will reveal a host of Roman and Greek temples from the Capitol building to the Supreme Court, as well an Egyptian obelisk dedicated to Washington. The rational thought that led to the enlightenment's reason was first found in the mind of Athena who was herself born from the "mind" of god.
Of course not "really" but the notion that the source of reason is the mind and not the heart is, in part, a product and celebration of this metaphor.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jan 12, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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Well, let's see. Homo sapiens has been around for a quarter of a million years, making moral decisions that entire time.
The oldest known religion has been around...how long? Monuments are nice - as are churches, but the inconvenient fact is that the Bill of Rights is not only explicitly secular, but at odds with many of the Christian teachings of its time - and most certainly of our own time as well.
The idea that our religion spawned morality - 50,000 years ago or today, seems ludicrous to me. Morality evolved with us, and therefore pre-existed any semblance of what we'd call religion by many thousands of years.
Perhaps the relevance of religion today is that it has provided a negative example to reject moving forward if a modern notion of human rights is to be achieved.
We needn't define America's shared moral code from scratch - it's called the Bill of Rights.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 12, 2015 - 04:39pm PT
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I think Zarathustra would call bs on that statement.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 12, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
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Contrast that with a typical southern Caribbean islander - typically underemployed and therefore 'lazy' by American standards - a moral failing in our eyes - but they don't go to war with anyone nor do they denude their island environment from over-consumption.
What is ur definition of moral? Approx. how many do you have? If its easy how about a list?
Should be interesting!!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 12, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
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Actually the list need have only one item.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 12, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
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oh missed this page.
Jan, don't you think it goes beyond that?
we don't treat kids the same as ourselves. Or the elderly!
i'd say being respectful with ur language around these two groups. Is a Moral. And one that crosses all borders. Cept at Wallmart..
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 12, 2015 - 06:27pm PT
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What is morality? innate behaviors that provide evolutionary success
Certainly Not! Evolution's success is a product of natural selection from a determined cause-n-effect. That is NOT morality.
Morality is atleast a free-willed choice to a path of dignity.
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