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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2009 - 04:54am PT
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Karl-
You might want to check out the books of Lamsa on Amazon. He claims the oldest scriptures have been preserved and they're in Aramaic which was the mother tongue of Paul and the other apostles.
As for Revelations, one of the three levels at which it exists is surely the first century political. The number 666 was a Jewish numerological reference to Nero Caesar.
I have no personal stake in picking over individual words and arguing about translations. My approach is much more personal and experiential.
Meanwhile, the Christian martyrs who marched into the coliseums to face down lions while singing hymns (and thereby converting thousands more) did not quote scripture as the canonical Bible had not been put together yet and in any case most of them were illiterate, a fact which most modern fundamentalist interpreters either don't know or ignore. The Church came before the Bible.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 25, 2009 - 07:02am PT
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Karl- "Modern bible scholars, believers or not, don't believe much if any, of the New Testament was written by anyone who met Jesus in the flesh".
Consider Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Matthew- was an eye witness and a disciple of Jesus. A tax collector, Matthew would have been literate and familiar with keeping the records of money. Appropriately, this Gospel contains more references to money than any of the others.
Mark- was also an eye witness and gave considerable detail: the emotional responses of Jesus and others, the sizes and actions of crowds and the appearance of men and women.
Luke- The author states that he was not an eyewitness to the events surrounding Jesus. But he gathered the reports of others who were, including Peter. Luke was an obviously educated man by ancient standards. He was capable of writing in High Greek style and who, as Col. 4:14 tells us, was a physician.
John- was one of the three disciples who were closest to Jesus, along with Peter and James.
John also wrote the epistles 1 John, 2 John, 3 John. And he also wrote 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ'.
And Jude, James and Peter, also wrote their respective epistles and were eye witness and disciples of Jesus.
Karl- "Jesus (then called Yeshua because Jesus is a Greek word).."
Jesus is the Greek spelling/pronunciation of Yeshua.
Karl- "much of it was written by Paul...who never met Jesus"
Well, there was the encounter on 'the road to Damascus' which qualified him as an Apostle.
'The Acts of the Apostles', was written by Luke "the beloved physician" as Paul referred to him. Luke translated all accounts from his Gospel, Acts and Paul's work into the Greek language.
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donald perry
Trad climber
kearny, NJ
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Oct 25, 2009 - 09:46am PT
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Lovegasoline Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY Oct 21, 2009 - 10:58pm PT wrote:
Christopher Hitchens Rational thoughts on Jesus of Nazareth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjcWkhqScBI ...to give the pot a stir.
"They came back emptey handed saying this story has no basis of any kind"
----------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Hitchens is an immoral and perverted speaker when it comes to conveying truth. Not only will he need to repent to God for his blatant sins, but to all those to whom he has mislead with his hatred and nonsensical accounts of archeology and history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvdg5KBlHCY&feature=related
Why would you want to quote him?
DJP
PS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2TjQqdRg5U
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 25, 2009 - 10:19am PT
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Luke 7:28, I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
John 10:25, Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
John 10:37-38, If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
John 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
Matt 11:3-5, and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?” And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.
John 20:30, Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Luke 4:14, And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and a report about him went out through all the surrounding country.
John 4:34, Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.
John 17:4, I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 25, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast,
but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.
Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 25, 2009 - 10:37am PT
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it's a mystery, but an understandable one...
call me mad
bit-by-bit progress is made
JL wrote I can only guess that either your intuition or some boundary experience gave you that insight, but it is getting very close to what we've been driving at all along. which I think I can take as at least a "C" in this whole lesson... but I think my "boundary experience" is really learning how to do science, in my case experimental high energy physics. Skepticism is an important component of doing science, and especially when it comes to trusting your own experience and model versus trusting you observations. Since we know all ways of observing are limited, and by this I mean something formal like sensitivity to signal, signal-to-noise, resolution, background noise, etc., we learn to question observations too, until we have understood our observations in detail. Then we can start to trust them and make conclusions based upon them.
So it is with the human sensory apparatus. While we don't understand it completely, we know a lot about its capabilities and limitations. And that includes the way the information is processed, much of that processing is not separated by a normal person.
The act of unfolding the observer from the observation is central to experimental science.
And that act does leave you in a wilderness, of some sorts, where we don't understand everything. The model we construct to describe these observations and organize them into theory is similarly rigorous, using a mathematical language with precise definition.
Hawking's "imaginary time" is not a metaphor, but more likely a discussion of what the universe would be like if time could be described as a complex number with real and imaginary parts, a formal mathematical definition. The whimsy created by physicists appropriating words to describe precise quantities can be quite confusing at times...
One can succumb to the idea that we can't understand and act on that to not try. But the successes of science over the last 500 years have been great. We don't know everything, we don't even have a claim at "truth" but that wasn't the program to start out with. Really it is just taking things a bit at a time, and building all those bits up... when you do that you find you have a rather large body of knowledge spanning from the smallest scale to the largest, from the shortest times to the longest... you might even start to understand what space and time are, and what generates it...
... that last statement was observed to be "arrogant" when made at a picnic bench at a certain campsite in Vedauwoo this last summer. I can see how it is interpreted as such. But it was made not as a statement of entitlement, but as the result of observation and understanding of many other things. And the statement was not authoritative as it had not yet predicted, and been tested. And when that happens, it is very likely that that particular idea will be shown wrong.
But maybe it is the start of understanding, or maybe a part of a larger understanding.
A favorite Einstein quote of mine:
"The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible."
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 25, 2009 - 10:51am PT
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This quote seemed more, uh, accessible to me.
“Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S relativity.” A. Einstein
In school, we used to joke: chicks dig science.... (creationists? not so much.)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 25, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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I guess some people go down the rabbit hole further than others. When they get scared, lost, lonely, bored, whatever, they convince themselves God must be just around the next corner. It is still just a rabbit hole, no matter how many ghosts you think you see along the way... enjoy the journey.
I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote weschrist, but it certainly wasn't what I was getting at. I wrote of the possibliity of some form of God, not the idea of a father type God figure.
As many have mentioned in this thread, you can claim all you want you know the ultimate truth: Christianity, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, etc. but the fact remains we don't know everything, at least not at this point in time. Maybe you have enough faith in your beliefs you are certain God doesn't exist, but it is still that.. faith.
Me I'm ok with not knowing if God is just the universe, or if there is some intelligence behind it all, or something else we can't comprehend. Either way it doesn't diminish the grandness of existense.
Another way to think of it all is that maybe intelligence was inevitable. With billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, over billions of years was it inevitable that intelligences arose? Is it still an "accident" that life arose if statistics could be worked out to show that life has a high probably to exist?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 25, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
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Dr F -- " .... So it can be said,
Saying so doesn't make it so.
I keep telling you that it's impossible to take God out of the equation. The equation itself, is God himself.
If you're an atheist and you deny and then you become the imitator God.
You indirectly try to become God.
And you will fail ...........
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 25, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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I've already said that science confirms that material nature exists and is superior to us.
Your equation is nothing but the material natures energy.
Material nature operates along perfectly without mans intervention.
Thus it is superior.
Thus the atheist is forced to submit to the superior power of Material nature.
Thus if one so tries to say there is no God nor higher power then they have even denied material nature.
Thus the atheistic logic is totally defective and points directly at the fool himself. The atheist is making it all up in his own head and even denying the same very facts he holds true (material nature).
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 25, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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"Karl- "Modern bible scholars, believers or not, don't believe much if any, of the New Testament was written by anyone who met Jesus in the flesh".
"Consider Matthew, Mark, Luke and John."
The actual manuscripts of the gospels are not labeled by authors and these names have been attributed to these names without any evidence. Modern bible scholars who follow academic, not blind faith, methods, do not believe the gospels were written by the folks whose names are listed on them.
You say Paul heard a voice and had an encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, but that is not meeting Jesus in the flesh as I stated. Paul was heading to Damascus to have Christains persecuted and killed. If Bin Laden were to claim to have been struck down by Jesus and had become a Christian and yet emphasized different things than Jesus did, would you make him an apostle based on his claim? If Jesus was God, couldn't he have arranged for first person apostles to spread his creed instead of some guy who came afterwards? I think Paul got it wrong but was a good salesman.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 25, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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Weren't the first Gospels preserved, about 100 yrs after the death of the alleged person referred to as Jesus?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 25, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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Manuscript fragments taken from rubble of cave 7 at Qumran may be from the Gospel of Mark. Cave 7 is believed to have collapsed soon ater the Essenes left Qumran in 68 CE. The Israeli government won't allow excavation of Cave 7 presently. It is said to be written in Herodian Script used between 30 BCE and 50 CE.
However, one fragment is not material proof that New Testament writings were in in possesion of the Essenes in the first century. Scrolls of all Old Testament books, with the exception of Esther, were found in other caves at Qumran, most dating from 200 BCE to 50 CE.
Historically, New Testament writings have come down in codex form rather than scrolls. Codex became popular in the first century CE. The entire New Testament canon was not agreed upon until three centuries after the desertion or depopulation of Qumran, but codex containing several gospels or a collection of letters were in use well before then, some believe as early as the first century CE. If New Testament writings were to be excavated from Cave 7, it would change the dating controversy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 25, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Probably no point in discussing the new testament in a creationism thread eh?
Jesus never spoke much, if any, about the importance of anything like the origins of man or the world.
The gospel of John talks about origins in ways we can disagree on, (like everything originating from "the word" which some say means "Jesus" and others might speculate is the original vibration from the divine source. But nowhere is said that Jesus taught this.
For that matter, the origins of life and early stories like the flood have no clear attribution in the old testament. Very similar stories are also contained in the epic of Gilgamesh, which has very early manuscripts. The first five books of the Bible are commonly attributed to Moses but no scholar believes that since they are written in very different writing styles, detail Moses own death and refer to him as the humblest man in the world, and contain dual conflicting stories (which scholars believe to be the result of reconciling traditions after Israel and Judea were split after Solomon.
The Bible really doesn't make much of a point in believing anything in particular about origins or creation, I can't really see why Christians would. The creation stories are clearly metaphors for something the people at the time couldn't understand so why be bothered? Doesn't anyone really want to make the case that women originated from one rib of a man or that man was created from dirt? Isn't that even worse than coming from a monkey?
Peace
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 25, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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So, Largo,
you would agree, Christianity is pure poppycock, they don't Talk to Jesus or God, they talk to their higher self
and if there is a God, he does not intervene in personal ways to save them and so on
I think you are getting turned around by the idea that "God" is somehow a "thing" that is "other there" rather than an aspect of your fundamental nature.
JL
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 25, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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MH2
climber
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Oct 25, 2009 - 10:41pm PT
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Ed H:
I'm still trying to figure out if posting to this thread is "in the interest of science"
Your posts are in the interest of, pardon my un-evolved ego, me.
And many other posters.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 25, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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In addition to whether animals can have consciousness or a soul, what about machines?
Anyone here read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, including her preface to the 1831(?) edition?
A thought experiment:
I've had the curious experience of lowering a micro-electrode into bits of central nervous system and listening to the voltage near the tip, a mysterious thrum and purr of electrical activity reflecting potential changes across the nearby cell membranes.
Neurons usually produce a large trans-membrane voltage spike when they want to say something. Put a micro-electrode near that neuron and you can hear its story.
Imagine you could record from every neuron in a person's brain every moment of their life. Number the neurons from 1 to 10 billion or thereabouts in a vertical list and show their electrical activity stretching out to the right as if in a book or table.
What would you be missing? Answers to that question can direct other questions when it comes to thought, consciousness, awareness, reality, spirituality, and the mechanism of action of the OH radical.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 25, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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Karl- " Modern bible scholars who follow academic, not blind faith, methods, do not believe the Gospels were written by the folks whose names were on them".
On the contrary, many modern bible scholars who do use academic, not blind faith, methods, believe the Gospels were written by the names of the people found on them.
Karl- "but that is not meeting Jesus in the flesh as I had stated."
I included Paul in the discourse because he was an associate of Luke, whom accompanied Paul on several of his missionary journeys. Luke used a very methodical,and observation based approach (what you would expect from a doctor) in writing Luke and Acts.
Karl- "If Bin Laden were to claim to have been struck down by Jesus and had become a Christian and yet emphasised different things than Jesus did, would you make him an apostal"?
I don't have the authority to make anyone an apostal, only the 12 origional apostals held that authority.
And I am not so sure that what Paul emphasised was so different from what Jesus preached.
I admire your adherence to the core beliefs and teachings of Jesus Karl, but would not it be considered "blind faith" to give them any connection to Jesus at all if "none of it was written by Jesus, none of it was written while Jesus was still alive. And much of it was written far from Jerusalem, and much of it was written by Paul and his followers who never met Jesus, and relied on sources we dont know" as you have suggested.
And I realise this is the exact point you are attempting to prove. But I recall you declaring your admiration of the beliefs of the 'Jesus of the Gospels' in another thread.
There is an certain amount of faith required to believe many things, crossing a bridge for instance (also trust). And it is healthy to question and come to reasonable conclusions as to bolster or doubt your belief/trust. And I welcome the thought, insight, and candid conversation you inspire which will help searchers in their quest for truth.
Perhaps, since it requires a small amount of 'faith' to know God, He purposely made sure the documented proof of the authors in question were left off of the orrigional documents.
Thankyou for your patience, I was out all day and have just recenly returned and immediatly responded to your last post.
Thanks Again. Peace and Love in Christ.
Sincerely, John.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 26, 2009 - 12:55am PT
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Hi John (TripL7)
We can agree to disagree about the state of scholarship regarding Gospel authorship. I'd love to see some documentation from you in the form of some link because I've studied this in detail. I can't find any serious scholar who believes the synoptic gospels were written by Matthew, Mark and Luke.
But yet, perhaps we shouldn't waste our time with it since indeed, looking at the core of the Gospels we find a Jesus extolling unconditional Love, tolerance, charity to the poor and even enemies, and non-judgement.
Its a tragedy that the Christian right isn't clambering to argue and defend these principles instead of latching onto gay marriage and theories of evolution versus creation. Putting Love on the banner instead of moralisms about the sins of others would go a long way toward bringing the blessings of Jesus to the world.
Peace
Karl
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