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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
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well we like to flail the inefficient USG for things, but nuclear security has vastly improved since 2005 (and since 2001) at least in part to the findings of such news reports as Karl has posted.
Further, I invite any and all of you to tell me just how much to believe a male, age 18-25 years old, who is a part of an "elite unit" when he is relaying a story about how his unit performed on an operation where one side was going to win and the other loose at the game they've been trained to play... in this case, a "red team blue team" effort simulating an attack on a nuclear facility...
in fact we have both these stories here, and both told to women, that in one case, the aggressors easily defeated the defenders (Jan's) and that in the other the defenders had no problem repelling the aggressors (Jeanie's)...
At best I take these stories with a grain of salt and usually await the findings of the team overseeing the operations to get a view of what important issues were uncovered and what needed to be changed... bragging rights notwithstanding.
I'd say we needed a bit more balanced information in judging what the actual risks are.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
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well we like to flail the inefficient USG for things, but nuclear security has vastly improved since 2005 (and since 2001) at least in part to the findings of such news reports as Karl has posted.
I think for me the safety from terrorism is a very secondary issue. I'm glad if it's improved but what 9-11 shows is that when something out of the box happens, you find you didn't prepare.
For example. let's say a higher level person at the plant develops Schizophrenia or another disorder than causes him to wish to sabotage the plant cause God told him to. How hard would it be for someone with access and knowledge to render the plant into deep trouble (sabotage the control room and backup?)
Maybe this could happen at a chemical plant too but our point is that nuclear has much longer lived effects to a area
Peace
karl
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 14, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
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F*#k off idiot.
I am hopeful that the discourse on nuclear energy will be several notches higher in intellect than this. Unfortunately, if you read every post in this thread, it is many of you who are against it that have resorted to this type of discourse, while Adam has done an excellent job sticking to the facts.
I am fairly certain that we can all agree that we want reliable, inexpensive electrical power that poses the least impact to human health and the environment. Sounds simple right?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
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I agree that the dialog should not be attacking and personal and when you write
I am fairly certain that we can all agree that we want reliable, inexpensive electrical power that poses the least impact to human health and the environment. Sounds simple right ?
I agree that we WANT that. It appears that this goal is elusive and will require heroic investments and efforts to get there as oil and natural gas become scarce. I too see that Coal looms as the easy, cheap dirty solution and if nuclear weren't such a nightmare, I'd celebrate it as our escape from the temptation of CO2 belching coal.
There is a longer road that takes us to a better place with renewable fuels but we can shorten it dramatically by pouring funding and scale into it. We're spending too much of that contemplating a return to nukes
Peace
karl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 14, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
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Oh please Karl....play patty cake nicy nice on your own time...
What good does it do when people just walk around you and keep in doing it?
This aadam ahole is in charge of inspecting these things? He thinks radiation is not a danger as it relates to cancer because DNA has the ability to fix itself!!
He has all the education of a two week nuclear safety course.
Instead of spending time editing old posts Adam get your dumb ass over there and help
Damn cowards using uneducated migrant workers to do the dirty work...
I wish I could help with this situation- but I can certainty see why is occured from the responses on this thread on both sides.
You know we fired four absolute lunatics this week, 3 nurses and 1 doctor, after over a month of my write ups and we placed their licenses under review, and I will be doing everything I can to stop them from practising.
Adam wouldn't be done wiping nuclear jiz off his chin in the same circumstances..
And you're a liar to boot Adam- I know what you deleted- and I expected it- and it will be posted when I am good and ready.
i suggest that you raid your hospitals medicine chest. you are one sick individual.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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Oh please Karl....play patty cake nicy nice on your own time...
What good does it do when people just walk around you and keep in doing it?
because this discussion isn't about you and I or Adam and TGT. It's about putting both cases before the numerous lurkers out there who haven't entrenched their position. If you behave in a way that reduces your credibility, you lose all the value this thread could have
PEace
Karl
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 14, 2011 - 04:46pm PT
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There is a longer road that takes us to a better place with renewable fuels but we can shorten it dramatically by pouring funding and scale into it.
Karl, I absolutely agree with you here and that is why 30 years ago I went into Chemical Engineering where energy is such a large part of the study.
The unfortunate realities of DC Budget politics these days show a huge uphill battle for the Dept. of Energy to fund this reasearch which would help us acheive these goals. With the Conservative Congress wanting to cut medicare/medicaid/SS I have a hard time believing that the longer term energy needs will be brought forward as an issue. I hate to say it but in my opinion most of the politicians are far shorter sighted than their constituents (liberal or conservative).
Here is a good link on DOE's Budget for 2010:
http://www.cfo.doe.gov/budget/10budget/Content/OrgControl.pdf
Renewable Energy Research did go up but form 2009 to 2010 but is a very small fraction of what is required.
Here is 2011:
http://www.cfo.doe.gov/budget/11budget/Content/Orgsum.pdf
This budget has not passed (obviously) but is the one that DOE put forward.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Golsen wrote
The unfortunate realities of DC Budget politics these days show a huge uphill battle for the Dept. of Energy to fund this reasearch which would help us acheive these goals. With the Conservative Congress wanting to cut medicare/medicaid/SS I have a hard time believing that the longer term energy needs will be brought forward as an issue. I hate to say it but in my opinion most of the politicians are far shorter sighted than their constituents (liberal or conservative).
It's so hard to say. You can hear the administration talk in a way that acknowledges that a resource crisis in on the way but they're still unwilling to make the investment in alternatives.
I believe this is because of the incredible money that's behind the status quo oil, coal, gas, and nuclear. This pays for politics. But it's not only that, I think they make the calculation that it's not world pissing off the utilities when Nuclear, coal and controlling prices and access to the remaining oil in the world is the most secure strategy to retaining our power during the short and medium terms. Maybe global warming is worth some money and lipservice but not so much it rocks the boat. The future will be somebody else's immediate problem someday.
Peace
Karl
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Apr 14, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
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And you're a liar to boot Adam- I know what you deleted- and I expected it- and it will be posted when I am good and ready.
Like I said, Riley... I'm 'all in'. You gonna 'call', or 'fold'.
Accept it... Your bluff was called, and you are still bluffing, holding us all hostage with your drama. If you had the cards, you would 'call' in a second, as for you, it's all about winning... Which is why when armed with a less than stellar hand, you posture up and bluff. But you just don't have it in you to 'fold', even when caught bluffing, can you?
You thrive off threads digressing into dramatic banter, don't you? Even when it distracts and ruins the thread, you just don't care, do you? That's a shame.
Let's face it... Even me replying to you is a waste of my time, and a distraction and waste of everyone else's time as well. But I'm stupid like that.
So...... Pardon me if I ignore you now, as I have NEVER been able to pee on those little piss flies that buzz around in the urinals, so I have learned to stop trying, and to just let them buzz around the urinal cake. And I don't feel like getting hooked into the drama by being part of your tantrum(s) anymore.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Apr 14, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
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there is critical information on this thread
none of us have time for rude noises
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 14, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
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Karl,
you do have some points there and that's why getting some longer term energy policy is very difficult when we must depend upon short term (relatively) politicians to develop it.
This chart is somewhat depressing as the percentage of power providers in the next 25 years (% of power obtained from various sources) seems pretty constant.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/state/
By the way, I posted this:
I am fairly certain that we can all agree that we want reliable, inexpensive electrical power that poses the least impact to human health and the environment.
because when you boil it all down, most of us want the same thing and simply disagreee on the best path to get there. This will be a big challenge for mankind this century.
cheers to you,
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Apr 14, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
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For example. let's say a higher level person at the plant develops Schizophrenia or another disorder than causes him to wish to sabotage the plant cause God told him to. How hard would it be for someone with access and knowledge to render the plant into deep trouble (sabotage the control room and backup?)
Karl,
Just today I replied to you with this concerning security:
Some info, you likely won't read, yet addresses everything you are asking about security:
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part073/
You didn't read it, did you? How do I know? Because if you had, you would see that what you are now asking is specifically addressed by that specific part of the Code of Federal Regulations:
(B) Active (e.g., facilitate entrance and exit, disable alarms and communications, participate in violent attack) or passive (e.g., provide information), or both, knowledgeable inside assistance;
Now, c'mon, brutha... If you are provided with detailed answers to your questions, and links, isn't it fair enough to expect you to read them? Otherwise, why ask the question if you do not want to look into the answer?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 14, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
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Anyway.. I didn't mean to rant so long. I do appreciate your and Adams commentary on this forum. This is a difficult subject and I hope you will forgive me for not exactly trusting everything that comes out of it.
John, I just saw this. No forgiveness required.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 14, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
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I was actually trying to scare that anonymous hawkeye guy up again.
Anyone figure out who this nitwit is yet??
Is it rradam??
They are about right on integrity- but not really sure about the rest.
Karl- sometimes ya gotta throw down- my attitude,judgment and response to absolute lies, distorted opinions or aggression have been constant over this entire thread.
If TGT, hawkeye or rradam have any credibilty left after 6 weeks of this disaster than this an an utterly hopeless situation.
I am done on this thread because it has been a skipping record for weeks- you can read the same mumbo jumbo from all sides at the bottom of any news article.
And Adam, I know at least three other posters who copied the thread 4 weeks ago- so don't worry, we are gonna have a little rradam, before and after party, on its own thread some day- then again I really don't care what you do- you know I know what you have deleted, and that is all that matters.
But I leave you with the question.
Which is worse: incompetance, impotence, evil, cowardice, or just not giving a sh#t.
cheers but not peace
riley
edit:
""Like I said, Riley... I'm 'all in'. You gonna 'call', or 'fold'.
Huh, bluff??? called?? this is a game to you??
You already lose rradam- you have already been busted. Would be nice to start the "game" over but you have already shown your cards and lost silly boy.
Rubber stamp, industry insider, inspector with out a clue- pretty much the worst piece of garbage there is in this world.
Thanks for the education rradam- you helped turn me from pro-nuclear to seeing this for what it really is....I will use your name and your posts on this thread when donating, giving time and joining groups associated with this very important cause...
game over..
dude, i know exactly who i am. however, you have not got it figured out whether you are nice enlightened buddist or man on the rag....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
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You didn't read it, did you? How do I know? Because if you had, you would see that what you are now asking is specifically addressed by that specific part of the Code of Federal Regulations:
Are you kidding. Seriously?
You linked probably 100+ pages of government regulations and I'm supposed to read the whole thing?
I did look at the security regs where they require 10 armed guards minimum but it's all still sorta vague. They have to have a written plan but there's lots of wiggle room in all these regs.
I posted links to the ABC show which was meant to be consumed for information and you obviously didn't read those links but then I'm supposed to check out all your fine print...Please... Really. If you know what the protections against a nutcase are, just type the generalities up quickly. I sort of don't think you can know who is going to lose it or not but can certainly screen out people. More important that one person couldn't do a lot of damage but I don't know that.
Peace
Karl
Edit: I know weapons are even more closely monitored and guarded but let's not forget that a few nukes got loaded on a plane by accident this year.
http://articles.cnn.com/2007-09-05/us/loose.nukes_1_nuclear-weapons-nuclear-warheads-missiles?_s=PM:US
"Six nuclear warheads on cruise missiles were mistakenly carried on a flight from North Dakota to Louisiana last week, prompting a major investigation, military officials have confirmed.
The plane took the cruise missiles from Minot Air Force Base to Barksdale Air Force Base for decommissioning Thursday, the Air Force said.
"This is a major gaffe, and it's going to cause some heads to roll down the line," said Don Shepperd, a retired Air Force major general and military analyst for CNN....Shepperd said the United States had agreed in a Cold War-era treaty not to fly nuclear weapons. "It appears that what happened was this treaty agreement was violated," he said.
The warheads should have been removed from the missiles before they were attached to the B-52 bomber, according to military officials. Watch the report on the military's investigation
The crew was unaware that the plane was carrying nuclear weapons, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the extraordinary sensitivity and security surrounding the case.
The mistake was discovered after the plane's flight to Louisiana.....
THIS YEAR, long after 9-11~!
Sort of speaks to my point in a way, even the most serious sh#t gets screwed up with humans minding the store, no matter how secure the happy talk says.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
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For those who hate links, here's about 1% of the material I'm supposed to read to follow up on Adam's post
Physical Protection of Special Nuclear Material of Moderate and Low Strategic Significance
§ 73.67 Licensee fixed site and in-transit requirements for the physical protection of special nuclear material of moderate and low strategic significance.
(a) General performance objectives. (1) Each licensee who possesses, uses or transports special nuclear material of moderate or low strategic significance shall establish and maintain a physical protection system that will achieve the following objectives:
(i) Minimize the possibilities for unauthorized removal of special nuclear material consistent with the potential consequences of such actions; and
(ii) Facilitate the location and recovery of missing special nuclear material.
(2) To achieve these objectives, the physical protection system shall provide:
(i) Early detection and assessment of unauthorized access or activities by an external adversary within the controlled access area containing special nuclear material;
(ii) Early detection of removal of special nuclear material by an external adversary from a controlled access area;
(iii) Assure proper placement and transfer of custody of special nuclear material; and
(iv) Respond to indications of an unauthorized removal of special nuclear material and then notify the appropriate response forces of its removal in order to facilitate its recovery.
(b)(1) A licensee is exempt from the requirements of this section to the extent that he possesses, uses, or transports:
(i) Special nuclear material which is not readily separable from other radioactive material and which has a total external radiation dose rate in excess of 100 rems per hour at a distance of 3 feet from any accessible surface without intervening shielding, or
(ii) Sealed plutonium-beryllium neutron sources totaling 500 grams or less contained plutonium at any one site or contiguous sites, or
(iii) Plutonium with an isotopic concentration exceeding 80 percent in plutonium-238.
(2) A licensee who has quantities of special nuclear material equivalent to special nuclear material of moderate strategic significance distributed over several buildings may, for each building which contains a quantity of special nuclear material less than or equal to a level of special nuclear material of low strategic significance, protect the material in that building under the lower classification physical security requirements.
(c) Each licensee who possesses, uses, transports, or delivers to a carrier for transport special nuclear material of moderate strategic significance, or 10 kg or more of special nuclear material of low strategic significance shall:
(1) Submit a security plan or an amended security plan describing how the licensee will comply with all the requirements of paragraphs (d), (e), (f), and (g) of this section, as appropriate, including schedules of implementation. The licensee shall retain a copy of the effective security plan as a record for three years after the close of period for which the licensee possesses the special nuclear material under each license for which the original plan was submitted. Copies of superseded material must be retained for three years after each change.
(2) Within 30 days after the plan submitted pursuant to paragraph (c)(1) of this section is approved, or when specified by the NRC in writing, implement the approved security plan.
(d) Fixed site requirements for special nuclear material of moderate strategic significance. Each licensee who possesses, stores, or uses quantities and types of special nuclear material of moderate strategic significance at a fixed site or contiguous sites, except as allowed by paragraph (b)(2) of this section and except those who are licensed to operate a nuclear power reactor pursuant to part 50, shall:
(1) Use the material only within a controlled access area which is illuminated sufficiently to allow detection and surveillance of unauthorized penetration or activities,
(2) Store the material only within a controlled access area such as a vault-type room or approved security cabinet or their equivalent which is illuminated sufficiently to allow detection and surveillance of unauthorized penetration or activities,
(3) Monitor with an intrusion alarm or other device or procedures the controlled access areas to detect unauthorized penetration or activities,
(4) Conduct screening prior to granting an individual unescorted access to the controlled access area where the material is used or stored, in order to obtain information on which to base a decision to permit such access,
(5) Develop and maintain a controlled badging and lock system to identify and limit access to the controlled access areas to authorized individuals,
(6) Limit access to the controlled access areas to authorized or escorted individuals who require such access in order to perform their duties,
(7) Assure that all visitors to the controlled access areas are under the constant escort of an individual who has been authorized access to the area,
(8) Establish a security organization or modify the current security organization to consist of at least one watchman per shift able to assess and respond to any unauthorized penetrations or activities in the controlled access areas,
(9) Provide a communication capability between the security organization and appropriate response force,
(10) Search on a random basis vehicles and packages leaving the controlled access areas, and
(11) Establish and maintain written response procedures for dealing with threats of thefts or thefts of these materials. The licensee shall retain a copy of the response procedures as a record for the period during which the licensee possesses the appropriate type and quantity of special nuclear material requiring this record under each license for which the original procedures were developed and, for three years thereafter. Copies of superseded material must be retained for three years after each change.
(e) In-transit requirements for special nuclear material of moderate strategic significance. (1) Each licensee who transports, exports or delivers to a carrier for transport special nuclear material of moderate strategic significance shall:
(i) Provide advance notification to the receiver of any planned shipments specifying the mode of transport, estimated time of arrival, location of the nuclear material transfer point, name of carrier and transport identification,
(ii) Receive confirmation from the receiver prior to the commencement of the planned shipment that the receiver will be ready to accept the shipment at the planned time and location and acknowledges the specified mode of transport,
(iii) Check the integrity of the container and locks or seals prior to shipment, and
(iv) Arrange for the in-transit physical protection of the materials in accordance with the requirements of § 73.67(e)(3) unless the receiver is a licensee and has agreed in writing to arrange for the in-transit physical protection.
(2) Each licensee who receives special nuclear material of moderate strategic significance shall:
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 14, 2011 - 07:37pm PT
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THIS YEAR, long after 9-11~!
Karl, not that it matters but that nuclear missile gaff was in 2007. I would not compare that to the happenings at nuclear reactors (I dont know much about reactors). I do know about some of the general procedures around weapons and this was clearly a major F%%% up. I worked at a plant that was under some of the same security protocols destroying weapons filled with Nerve Agent. We counted the munitions every night against what we had destroyed. While we of course never lost one, any miscounts in the middle of the night became first priority.
Whoever, was the base commander in North Dakota probably resigned or was demoted.
Oh and thanks for the NRC reading stuff (yawn), Adam was clearly wanting to share the pulitzer prize material!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 14, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
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rrrAdam is no more an industry apologist than radical is a sane man. read radicals posts on this thread if you need any convincing.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Apr 14, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
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The FAA has regulations against sleeping on the job. And at one time that industry was the best in the world. But due to budget restraints, it has slowly cut itself until things are getting dangerous again. We have had multiple incidents where major airlines had to land without air traffic controls help because the controller was asleep. But dammit man.. there are regulations. That just shouldn't happen.
I would like to know how that link Adam said we wouldn't read, proves that nukes are now safely guarded. No one doubts there are regulations in place. At least I don't. I just doubt an industry can keep it up constantly, and not make mistakes. I also wonder what is going to happen to the waste, if we run out of money to keep it safe.
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