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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Feb 15, 2012 - 11:22am PT
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Wait, I had a thought.....
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Feb 15, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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In the interest of being as silly as climbing usually is:
assiduously stop just short of "I've never met a bolt I didn't like",
I've met a few bolts I didn't like,....because they were hanging half way out.
But I clipped them anyway........
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Feb 15, 2012 - 11:27am PT
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So let me get this straight:
Bridwell is to blame.
That's rich. Ridiculously stupid, but rich. I had a laugh.
Since Maestri chopped the top of his final bolt ladder on his descent, Bridwell was actually the first to climb the Compressor Route without chopping bolts, thereby setting a dubious precedent for all subsequent climbs. If he had respected the style of the first ascent, he would have chopped the top 20 bolts or so on his way down, just like Maestri. If everybody who climbed the route since had done the same, all the bolts would be gone by now. Isn't that what dear Cesare truly wanted? To share the route with nobody?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Feb 15, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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Bridwell was actually the first to climb the Compressor Route without chopping bolts, thereby setting a dubious precedent for all subsequent climbs
There was nothing dubious about the precedent set by Bridwell and Brewer's FTA (first true ascent).
The precedent was he showed how fast it could and should be done. Also they were in a bit of a hurry - a constraint not imposed in these times of climate softening and weather windows that last more than 2 days.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Feb 15, 2012 - 11:40am PT
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There was nothing dubious about Bridwell and Brewer's FTA (first true ascent)
I wuz beein sarkastic
The Brewer/Bridwell ascent was badass. What Maestri did was badass as well, just wrong and dishonourable. Bridwell is not to blame for Maestri's route!
I just read Brewer's article again. Enzolino cherrypicks some nice quotes above, but none of them refer to the actual headwall bolt ladders that Kruk and Kennedy removed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 15, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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Bridwell was actually the first to climb the Compressor Route without chopping bolts...
Given the dropped gear, weather, and fall I'd say they were in no position to even think about chopping the line.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Feb 15, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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healyje
no need to debate this. I was joking.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 15, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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@Snorky,
The Brewer/Bridwell ascent was badass. What Maestri did was badass as well, just wrong and dishonourable. Bridwell is not to blame for Maestri's route!
I just read Brewer's article again. Enzolino cherrypicks some nice quotes above, but none of them refer to the actual headwall bolt ladders that Kruk and Kennedy removed. As far as I'm concerned the discussion is not just about the KKK chopping but also the previous Garibotti's and Haley's despectful, deceptive and unfair anti-Maestri propaganda. Which, in my opinion, contributed significantly to the KKK chopping. And the Compressor route is not just represented by the bolt ladders.
I've just read the Maestri's interview ... and now I sympathize even more with him ... even for the little fact that I have such a bad memory that I barely remember relevant details of my ascents ... so I understand him when he is so vague ...
I'm also sure Maestri wouldn't give a damn about the chopping ...
I agree that Brewer/Bridwell/Maestri's ascents were badasses ... that Maestri did it in a bad style ... but I also think Maestri's ascent was epic ... crazy (in the positive sense) and I find some beauty in his anarchic view of climbing, although I don't share it and, fortunately, I think it was an "almost" isolated case ... I consider his character somehow very similar to Harding's personality ...
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Feb 15, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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"done in Sierra conditions" ...
... "by Eldo prancers" ...
the ultimate put-down
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gimmeslack
Trad climber
VA
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Feb 16, 2012 - 09:47am PT
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http://www.thecleanestline.com/2012/02/a-word-.html
//A Word …
by Yvon Chouinard
Ridgeway_r_0024_2
The siege tactic used on Cerro Torre’s Compressor Route is perhaps the most egregious example of alpinism’s egoistic “manifest destiny” philosophy, one that calls for conquering the mountain by any means, then leaving in place the pitons, bolts, ropes and cables. This debases a route, leaving it accessible to those without the skill or nerve to climb in good style. It is the alpinist’s equivalent of hunting with headlights.
Unfortunately, you can see the damage in so many places, in the Dolomites especially, where routes first done in great style in the 1920s now sport bolts every few meters.
Thank God there are a few young climbers like Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk who exemplify the best qualities of alpinism. The magnificent southeast ridge of Cerro Torre has been unshackled and can now be an inspiration to future alpinists who have the courage to climb rather than merely summit by any possible means.//
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad surfing the galactic plane
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Feb 16, 2012 - 09:52am PT
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Bridwell Rulez, Suckerz!!
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 16, 2012 - 10:36am PT
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http://www.thecleanestline.com/2012/02/a-word-.html
//A Word …
by Yvon Chouinard
Ridgeway_r_0024_2
The siege tactic used on Cerro Torre’s Compressor Route is perhaps the most egregious example of alpinism’s egoistic “manifest destiny” philosophy, one that calls for conquering the mountain by any means, then leaving in place the pitons, bolts, ropes and cables. This debases a route, leaving it accessible to those without the skill or nerve to climb in good style. It is the alpinist’s equivalent of hunting with headlights.
Unfortunately, you can see the damage in so many places, in the Dolomites especially, where routes first done in great style in the 1920s now sport bolts every few meters.
Thank God there are a few young climbers like Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk who exemplify the best qualities of alpinism. The magnificent southeast ridge of Cerro Torre has been unshackled and can now be an inspiration to future alpinists who have the courage to climb rather than merely summit by any possible means.// The king of ethics spoke ... LOL
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 16, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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I haven't checked this thread in a few weeks and I'm bored with it now but this quote I found interesting:
"As far as I'm concerned the discussion is not just about the KKK chopping but also the previous Garibotti's and Haley's despectful, deceptive and unfair anti-Maestri propaganda."
What's confusing here, to me, is that I thought it was pretty well established that Maestri perpetrated two enormous hoaxes per his supposed 1959 ascent with Toni Egger, and his Compressor debacle in 1970. In the later, it was always assumed that he actually summited the peak. Not till Bridwell and Brewer completed the line a few years later did the climbing world realize Maestri never finished this ascent either.
In perpetrating such wholesale frauds on the adventure community, playing the world for fools, was Maestri himself not the epitome of someone being "disrespectful, deceptive and unfair." To turn this around and accuse those calling Maestri out for being a bald faced phoney, and ascribing him historical merit and authorship of "classical" routes he never actually completed, seems to border on insanity.
JL
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 16, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
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Hypocrisy certainly, but using the word "insanity" is a telling sign of just how important these issues still are to you Largo.
And I don't mean this in a bad way.
In a world that has virtually obliterated the concept of honor there are still a few individuals that refuse to abandon it.
But, though I am convinced that Maestri never stood on the summit, whether the route was completed by him or Jim it still is what it is.
We can sit in armchairs and blather all we want, but the only statements that bear true weight are the deeds done on high.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 16, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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I haven't checked this thread in a few weeks and I'm bored with it now but this quote I found interesting:
"As far as I'm concerned the discussion is not just about the KKK chopping but also the previous Garibotti's and Haley's despectful, deceptive and unfair anti-Maestri propaganda."
What's confusing here, to me, is that I thought it was pretty well established that Maestri perpetrated two enormous hoaxes per his supposed 1959 ascent with Toni Egger, and his Compressor debacle in 1970. In the later, it was always assumed that he actually summited the peak. Not till Bridwell and Brewer completed the line a few years later did the climbing world realize Maestri never finished this ascent either.
In perpetrating such wholesale frauds on the adventure community, playing the world for fools, was Maestri himself not the epitome of someone being "disrespectful, deceptive and unfair." To turn this around and accuse those calling Maestri out for being a bald faced phoney, and ascribing him historical merit and authorship of "classical" routes he never actually completed, seems to border on insanity.
JL Maestri always declared that he reached what he considered the top of Cerro Torre. WHich for him was just the rock.
So he was quite self-consistent and honest about what he said. If he didn't reach the summit of the mushroom and he would have said that he did reach it. In that case you could say that he was a liar. So I wonder where you see his dishonesty.
His account on the 1959 ascent was inconsistent, but this is not a proof that he lied. Climbing history is plenty of inconsistent accounts.
In conclusion, also in this case, I wonder if dishonesty, unfairness and insanity is just in the eyes of the beholder.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Feb 16, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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Maestri always declared that he reached what he considered the top of Cerro Torre. WHich for him was just the rock.
So he was quite self-consistent and honest about what he said. If he didn't reach the summit of the mushroom and he would have said that he did reach it. In that case you could say that he was a liar. So I wonder where you see his dishonesty.
This is like the people who claim they did a new route that ended when they reached the "end of the technical difficulties", far from the summit, and they decide to rappel off. This is called reinventing reality to fit your ego.
I consider basecamp the top of the mountain. Impressed by my ascent?
His account on the 1959 ascent was inconsistent, but this is not a proof that he lied. Climbing history is plenty of inconsistent accounts.
It was more than inconsistent. It had no bearing in reality.
This is like the Cook Society people who explain away Cook's "summit photograph" of Denali, showing his partner standing on rock- demonstrated years later conclusively to be on a 5,600' mountain 20 miles away- that the summit 'has since been covered over with snow'. And that just because an expert team of climbers in 1969 took 40 days to climb the route that Cook (who was not a skilled climber) climbed in five days round trip, and which had ice climbing difficulties that were 50 years in the future, that it "proves nothing".
In conclusion, also in this case, I wonder if dishonesty, unfairness and insanity is just in the eyes of the beholder.
It is, if one chooses to willfully ignore conclusive evidence.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 16, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
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@MarkWestman,
This is like the people who claim they did a new route that ended when they reached the "end of the technical difficulties", far from the summit, and they decide to rappel off. This is called reinventing reality to fit your ego.
I consider basecamp the top of the mountain. Impressed by my ascent? I think you and Largo confuse honesty with personal standards.
When Salvaterra claims that he did a FA of "El Arca de los Vientos" in alpine style, although they used 150 meters of fixed ropes, I don't say that he is a liar. I say that his standard of what is alpine style, is pretty loose.
When Kennedy and Kruk claim that they did a fair means ascent of the Compressor route using several bolts, I don't say they are liar. But just that they have a very loose standard of what fair means means.
When Doug Scott, Peter Boardman and Joe Tasker claimed that they summited Kangchenjunga, but they actually arrived four meters from the real tip of the mountain, I don't say that they are liars. I understand that for them they reached the summit, and that they are honest about their account.
The same applies to what Maestri said. He didn't climbg the Icy mushroom and he stepped where he considered was the summit. 95 % of climbers disagree with him. And so what? You can say that he has a different standard, but not that he is a liar.
So, if someone sees dishonesty where doesn't exist, this questions the nature of his judgement.
A final comment ... I cannot care less if someone reaches the summit or not. That is a notaries' concern.
I care about the human experience. The epic of an ascent.
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adnix
Big Wall climber
Finland
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Feb 16, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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Maestri always declared that he reached what he considered the top of Cerro Torre. WHich for him was just the rock.
His account on the 1959 ascent was inconsistent, but this is not a proof that he lied. Climbing history is plenty of inconsistent accounts.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's insanity, the lack of Patagonian climbing mileage or the lack of logic that can give this kind of comments.
The summit is the summit and nothing else. The compressor bolts ended before the top of the rock. Pretty much proves he didn't reach the top of the rock like he claimed. It's like climbing the Salbitchijen in the Swiss but not doing the Nadel because "it's not the summit".
1959 thing has been discussed too many times already but If you've ever climbed anything in the massif, it's very evident that failing on the "approach" with 50's gear makes it totally impossible doing the first ascent with an alpine style push to the summit from the col like he claimed. This year that such push was done by Bjorn-Eivind and Ole on Torre Egger but with Nomics and loads of experince on WI6+ ice. The Ferrari first ascent was done with fixed ropes.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 16, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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@adnix,
I'm beginning to wonder if it's insanity, the lack of Patagonian climbing mileage or the lack of logic that can give this kind of comments.
The summit is the summit and nothing else. The compressor bolts ended before the top of the rock. Pretty much proves he didn't reach the top of the rock like he claimed. It's like climbing the Salbitchijen in the Swiss but not doing the Nadel because "it's not the summit". Did Maestri say that he climbed the top of the icy mushroom? No. He said he stepped until the top above the rock but that he did not climb the top of the mushroom. You can say that he has a loose concept of what summit is, but not that he is a liar.
1959 thing has been discussed too many times already but If you've ever climbed anything in the massif, it's very evident that failing on the "approach" with 50's gear makes it totally impossible doing the first ascent with an alpine style push to the summit from the col like he claimed. This year that such push was done by Bjorn-Eivind and Ole on Torre Egger but with Nomics and loads of experince on WI6+ ice. The Ferrari first ascent was done with fixed ropes. So, would you say that Reinhold Messner is a liar, because took 42 years to other climbers with modern climbing shoes and climbing performance to repeat his free climb in Sass della Crusc, where he used climbing boots? Do you believe he is a liar?
Would you say that the average jumper Bob Beamon and the jury were liars when he did a long jump record in 1968 which lasted 23 years, despite the progress in training and technology in athletics?
Don't you realize how weak is the skills of the time argument?
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