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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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Rapier wit, that Werner. Yep, yep.
Like acupuncture, sometimes you don't even know you've been stabbed
...until, curiously, you just feel better
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:21pm PT
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Werner writes:
"Wasn't the NPS that's for sure, who started the ban on Power Drills? It wasn't the land managers, that's for sure."
Ironic, isn't it, that a ground-up trad master complaining to the NPS was the catalyst for the NPS banning power drills.
Ironic, since power drills would have helped advance ground up tactics for one handed drilling on the lead, instead of the cave man technology of hammer and drill, pounding away at iron-hard stone!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:24pm PT
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DMT,
Tow-in is a great anaolgy. In fact, I've been watching surfing carefully for 40 years to see the future of climbing: scarcer resource, crowds, "my beach my wave," territoriality in the lineup, fist fights in parking lots, "valleys go home," sponsorship, the media, dope, heroes, soul surfers, the mystical references to "our mother ocean"... Kinda all there, only bigger.
I like Kevin's gradations, too, like:
leash = hang-dogging
tow-in = rap bolting
Of course while leashes can be just a selfish convenience to avoid extra paddling, they can be seen to have a social function too, like not klonking fellow surfers with your board which can threaten their lives. Hmmm...
Isn't Laird Hamilton against tow-in? Maybe in the same vein as his never entering contests? Is he surfing's JB? And he's married to a supermodel...
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
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Ed,
I concur that the GU issue is piece of a much larger whole. And while the NPS is going about taking out campsites, gas stations, and golf courses, are we as climbers taking it the other direction?
Changing times have noticeably eroded some of the mystic and sense of grandeur of the Valley. In the 60’s, El Cap was to be feared. In the 70’s it was much larger than life. Then it got climbed in 1 (one) frickin day! Its size kept shrinking in the 80’s. By the 90’s someone decided to put up a cell phone tower so that you can talk to your significant at night from your ledge, and call Werner directly if things get sketchy. Now EC is climbed in minutes with live Taco reports if a speed record is being attacked. Much of this change is positive. But the loss of mystic is negative. Yosemite still has a “Wow!” factor that is unmatched in continental U.S. When it’s gone, it’s gone. When a once anathema ethic arises which hastens its (Yosemite's uniqueness) demise, we should all take notice and have something to say.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
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"Sure I could have developed more of my routes on lead, and it would have been a great adventure for me, and ONLY me, sadly the finished product would have been crap and the adventure and the quality would have been robbed for any repeat assentionist."
I don't agree with what Aaron said here, at all. There is a legacy of hundreds of routes, left for all of us in the valley, that strongly disprove this opinion.
Traditionalism is also important. Especially when it came about for the reasons that ground-up climbing came about. But this is true of all kinds of things. All "sports". Tradition makes things what they are, currently. The difference between climbing and other things is that there's no governing body (thank god) and no one setting rules (again). Regardless, taking shortcuts is usually frowned on in any activity.
I think kind of what's happening here, if you look at it, it kind of seems that the people who think of climbing as a sport are on the "for" team (where anything goes), whereas those of us who think more about climbing as a pursuit, a way of life, etc. are in the "against" team. Not saying it's good or bad, it just seems divided that way, for the most part. This also isn't to say that there's not a little of both in each camp.
It's really a difference of opinion and style/ethics. So it really boils down to should SFHD have rap-bolted sport routes on it? Should there be areas of Yosemite, which is steeped in tradition, that are "sacred" so to speak? Or should it really be a free-for-all? Which, in some ways makes one wonder about the inch and the mile... If *they* can suddenly do as they please on HD, then why can't I do this over here? It kind of reminds me of the Jardine Traverse, in some ways. Something frowned on and "futuristic" was done anyway. Will GU also stand as a sore reminder of something sad? A scar on another of Yosemite's majestic walls... Or will it pave the way for the future...?
Things are definitely changing, as is evident in how this has all played out. If you think about reactions back in the day, by the Stonemasters, etc. to things such as this, versus the reactions of my generation. It's hard to not feel as if something has been lost. One generation has gotten a little older and toned down, the new just doesn't have the same kind of heart. That's the way I see it anyhow.
Interesting points/observations are being made by many in this thread.
"(no top ropes from helicopters or help from hidden submarines)"
hahaha Nice, JB.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:46pm PT
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Nef. Some really great observations in your post. A few years ago one of the rags ran an article on old letters-to-the-editor. The point was, I thought, to show how stupid or short-sighted we can be, as in the letter stating that Jardine’s Friends (cams) were a form of cheating that diminished climbing. Ironic that it was also Jardine who chipped out the Jardine Traverse.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:59pm PT
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Tow-in surfing and sport climbs... some waves could not be surfed with out a tow in (you need the speed to catch the wave), and some climbs could not be established on lead. If a wave can't be surfed without a tow in should it not be surfed? If a climb can't be done with out rap bolting should it not be done? This doesn't apply to Growing up, since growing up is not a sport climb that could have been done without rap bolts.
Of course tow-in's are sometimes used on waves that don't require them and rap bolting is sometimes done on climbs that don't require it (Growing up), that's a different point of controversy.
I think the ground up style is an important 'rule' that preserves challenge and adventure. But does that 'rule' apply to all climbs? Or is that 'rule' best enforced in the mind of the first ascensionist.
Warren and Galen previewed the top of the face when Royal rescued them. Did that negate that FA? Or is it just if pro is placed on rappel that negates an FA?
Sean has said, (and it plays out in the ratings of the ground up vs. rap bolted sections; 13a vs 11d) that he could have done the climb ground up. He didn't 'bring the climb down to his level', he made the choice of style based on what he felt would leave the best route for future climbers. So the funny thing is that if there was no article about the climb, most people would not know if it was done ground up or not, and this thread would not exist. Or if he did the ascent ground up and retrobolted on rap later this thread would not exsist.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:09pm PT
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Who is Aaron?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
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Seems to me that route proliferation in the Yosemite has been prevented by two other things
1. No Power drilling
2. Granite doesn't lend itself to proliferation like limestone and some other stones
Peace
Karl
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:25pm PT
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Karl - can you tell me who Aaron is, or at least link to his post?
I have no idea who you're quoting...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
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Aaron wrote
""Sure I could have developed more of my routes on lead, and it would have been a great adventure for me, and ONLY me, sadly the finished product would have been crap and the adventure and the quality would have been robbed for any repeat assentionist."
then Nefarious wrote
"I don't agree with what Aaron said here, at all. There is a legacy of hundreds of routes, left for all of us in the valley, that strongly disprove this opinion. "
Karl sez "Huh? First of all, we're talking about face route cause cracks take care of themselves. Many, many of even the crack routes in the valley have retrobolted anchors by those who later prepared the routes for popular ascents. But it's face routes when the FA party has the option of considering future ascensionists or not and I strongly disagree with your statement that there are hundreds of routes that disprove that opinion. First, the opinion was Aaron's about his route. Second, can you name 20 bolted face routes in the valley that get regular climbing? The Apron of Cathedral, Glacier Point and Royal Arches are littered with face climbs that are rarely done and seldom maintained. Face climbing is the place in the valley where the 1/4 inch nasty bolt with a 30 foot run-out after it still lives.
Nefarius"
"I think kind of what's happening here, if you look at it, it kind of seems that the people who think of climbing as a sport are on the "for" team (where anything goes), whereas those of us who think more about climbing as a pursuit, a way of life, etc. are in the "against" team. Not saying it's good or bad, it just seems divided that way, for the most part. This also isn't to say that there's not a little of both in each camp"
Karl
I think that's your imagination. These ethics debates seems like sexual morality debates. "Just abstain, if you have sex before marraige, pretty soon you'll be screwing the football team and then giving BJs for $20. Anything will go, you'll marry a goat." It ain't that way. People use their judgement.
Nefarious:
"It's really a difference of opinion and style/ethics. So it really boils down to should SFHD have rap-bolted sport routes on it? "
Karl
"Huh? Growing up isn't a sport climb
Nefarious:
"Should there be areas of Yosemite, which is steeped in tradition, that are "sacred" so to speak? Or should it really be a free-for-all?
Karl
again, too much absolutist all or nothing talk. Half dome's first ascent was a giant bolt ladder, Harding drilled the crap out of the South Face on the Fa, Skinner sieged the crap out of the Direct when he freed it, and Arcturus was just rap bolted. Even Southern Belle was seiged and, apparently, neither Souther Belle nor Growing UP have had even one continuous ascent. Not ONE! If you're jugging lines on your ascent, it's just another way of cheating.
Nefarious
"Things are definitely changing, as is evident in how this has all played out. If you think about reactions back in the day, by the Stonemasters, etc. to things such as this, versus the reactions of my generation. It's hard to not feel as if something has been lost. One generation has gotten a little older and toned down, the new just doesn't have the same kind of heart. That's the way I see it anyhow."
Karl
I think you are just making this stuff up out of fantasy land and not really considering history. Fixed lines, bolted cracks, and the whole nine yards. THere was plenty of it back in the day. It's the same as it ever was, only with new issues, same as the old issues, but different.
PS. Not trying to bag on you, just called these statements into Question
peace
Karl
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:58pm PT
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Thanks for the link. I haven't visited that site in years.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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Randy says, Huh? Is Karl smoking too much of his hippie lettuce...?
First of all, with your first paragraph about my first paragraph, we're not talking about crack vs. face, at all. You make that separation, no one else. It's about ground-up, vs. not. That was the style that most routes in the valley have gone up. That is the "ethic" that was practiced, for the most part, since it all began.
"Face climbing is the place in the valley where the 1/4 inch nasty bolt with a 30 foot run-out after it still lives."
Seriously, you're just arguing my point for me here, dude.
"I think that's your imagination."
Well, that's just your opinion. I'm pretty happy with the company I am in, however, that shares the same opinion.
"Huh? Growing up isn't a sport climb"
Hmmm... Just out of curiosity, what do you call a rap bolted line? It's certainly not a trad line.
"again, too much absolutist all or nothing talk. Half dome's first ascent was a giant bolt ladder, Harding drilled the crap out of the South Face on the Fa, Skinner sieged the crap out of the Direct when he freed it, and Arcturus was just rap bolted. Even Southern Belle was seiged and, apparently, neither Souther Belle nor Growing UP have had even one continuous ascent. Not ONE! If you're jugging lines on your ascent, it's just another way of cheating. "
Again, you're taking what was said, twisting it to suit your rant and totally (with the exception of Arcturus) bypassing the fact that this is about vs. ground-up or not.
As far as fantasy... Again, I think there are plenty of people here sharing my view. And I'm happy with the company sharing it. Actually, I really don't have to "think" that this view is not just some wild "fantasy", there are 1600 posts in this thread alone, not to mention the countless other threads on similar topics, that *show* people sharing my opinion are at least half of the folks in the discussions.
Seriously, dude. Amusing.
edit: The more I read this, the more I am amused... You've just taken my post, added yours and really condensed this 1600 post thread back to the very beginning. One side against the other. It will never change. hahaha I'm going climbing. No time for this nonsense.
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Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
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re: tow-in surfing
The "leash = sport climbing" and the "tow-in surfing = rap bolting" are interesting thoughts and nice attempts - however incorrect. It is more like "tow-in surfing = sport climbing" because this is a method that raises the top level of the game (i.e. 5.15) for the elite and allows mere mortals to have a more fun and enjoyable experience in otherwise dangerous and unsurfable conditions. There are surfers who believe leashes (i.e. rap bolting) should be outlawed at certain breaks - thus accomplishing crowd control. These breaks include venues like Sunset Beach in Oahu and Windansea Beach in La Jolla (SFHD?). This is an idea that is worth considering at a few select breaks because only the skilled watermen would survive. So Tired Trad Tales would say "leashes are more like rap bolting".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:49pm PT
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Hi Randy
Guess we were talking about different things. Aaron's post had been about considering other people in his FA. That's what I was talking about.
You talked about ground-up versus rap bolting but then went on about climbing losing its soul.
Soul is about lots more than rap versus ground up and there are TONS of ways to cheat while going ground up. That's what I'm talking about. It's the same as it ever was around here and the old school likes to pretend they were pure but they were not. Only the identified sins have changed, but the principles go on
The main point I was getting back to, was that it's possible to consider lesser climbers and the longevity of the climb when doing an FA. A lot of the 5.13 capable climbers in the past (even though they hadn't invented the grade yet) gobbled up the 5.9 territory with no-pro routes, cause it was nothing to them and now it's a no man's land. Today. some harder climbers put up moderate routes and equipment them for the grade for the service of others. I respect that.
Having a section put up by rap doesn't mean Gu isn't a trad climb anymore than the Nose isn't a trad climb because it was seiged over weeks or BY isn't a trad climb because it's only bolt protected. Things don't have to be exaggerated. They are what they are. GU is what it is. This whole Trad versus Sport is a few fangled concept with no real definition. (or care to define it?)
peace
Karl
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:13pm PT
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Growing Up seems really influenced by Trad and Sport, and it's sort of in between those, really. It's like a Sprad climb, really.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:21pm PT
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Sprad route, I like that.
I was thinking it was traort.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:21pm PT
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"Growing Up seems really influenced by Trad and Sport, and it's sort of in between those, really. It's like a Sprad climb, really."
Classic.
Just like ourselves, we're a mix of angel and devil, pragmatist and idealist, traditionalist and innovations.
Peace
Karl
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:32pm PT
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New Paradigm
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SuperTopo on the Web
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