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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
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So, what are the Feds doing there?
( besides menacing the locals )
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
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Sen. Harry Reid’s baseless ‘domestic terror’ accusations
By Marc A. Thiessen, Monday, April 21, 7:44 AM
Harry Reid did it again.
The Senate majority leader who called President Bush a “loser” and a “liar,” declared former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan a “political hack” and asserted that all Obamacare horror stories are “untrue” has now called Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy and his supporters “domestic terrorists.”
Marc A. Thiessen
The comparison is as noxious as it is absurd. Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh was a domestic terrorist. The Unabomber was a domestic terrorist. Centennial Olympic Park bomber Eric Rudolph was a domestic terrorist. To equate Bundy and his supporters with these murderers is, quite simply, appalling.
It was the federal Bureau of Land Management that provoked the confrontation — descending with 200 armed men, including some with sniper rifles, to seize the Bundys’ cattle on land their family has grazed since 1877. Whatever one thinks of the Bundys’ legal case over unpaid grazing fees — and the federal government’s desire to protect the desert tortoise — defending your property against a paramilitary force of armed federal agents is not the equivalent of blowing up a federal building or sending letter bombs.
It would be easy to dismiss Reid as a buffoon with a chronic case of logorrhea. But this was not a slip of the tongue on Reid’s part. Video shows that when Reid first used the phrase “domestic terrorists” at a Las Vegas Review Journal event, he looked down at his notes just before he spoke the words. It was a carefully planned line of attack. Then, when he was asked during a Nevada TV interview a day later “What did you mean by that?” he replied, “Just what I said” — before engaging in an extended attack on the Bundy family and its supporters.
Why would Reid, the senior senator from Nevada, make such an outrageous accusation?
First, Reid is defending the Obama administration from the charge that it used excessive force to try to seize the land. Most Americans recoil at the sight of armed federal agents training sniper rifles on a group of Boy Scouts, veterans, parents and grandparents engaged in civil disobedience. But if Bundy’s supporters are not protesters but “domestic terrorists,” then sending a federal force to confront them is not excessive.
Second, Reid is defending his former staffer, Neil Kornze, who presided over this debacle as the newly installed head of the Bureau of Land Management. Kornze, who is just 35 years old, was Reid’s handpicked choice to run the BLM. “Neil is just perfect for this position,” Reid declared when Kornze was nominated, adding that he “really understands the role of public lands in rural America, and natural resources across the West.”
In his first days on the job, Kornze demonstrated that understanding by launching a paramilitary raid against a Nevada rancher. Kornze tried to silence Bundy’s supporters by setting up “First Amendment Zones” where protesters would be corralled and fenced in like a bunch of cattle. And he provoked an armed standoff that might well have resulted in the death of innocent men, women and children. The only way his actions could be even remotely defensible is if he was confronting “domestic terrorists.”
Third, Reid is trying to discredit the critics of the federal government’s actions as extremists — and by extension all those who complain about the excesses of federal power. He wants to paint supporters of limited government as radicals so out of the mainstream that they are now even defending “domestic terrorists.”
But instead of painting conservatives as extremists, Reid is only painting Democrats as enemies of the Western way of life. The Bundy family’s cattle have been grazing on these lands for nearly 140 years — only to see armed federal agents try to seize their cattle. Even before the Bundy standoff, there was a larger movement afoot in Western states to take back control of federal lands within their borders. Last week, more than 50 elected officials from nine Western states gathered in Utah for a Legislative Summit on the Transfer for Public Lands. “What’s happened in Nevada is really just a symptom of a much larger problem,” said Utah House Speaker Becky Lockhart, who helped convene the meeting. “It’s time the states in the West come of age,” said Idaho House Speaker Scott Bedke. “We’re every bit as capable of managing the lands in our boundaries as the states east of Colorado.”
If Reid wants Democrats to be the party that responds to these growing calls for state control by sending armed federal forces to drive Western ranchers off of federal lands and seize their property, that is his choice. Calling his opponents “domestic terrorists” won’t solve his political problems — it will only make them worse.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:32pm PT
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You're asking me why cops don't arrest someone every single time a law is broken?
...and you are claiming that I am the one who is being tedious?
You were being tedious, now you're being ridiculous.
So the reason why the feds didn't arrest the protesters is something like "so many crimes are committed that the cops just don't have time to arrest everyone"??
And they have to fill out all that paperwork after an arrest--just give 'em a warning and move on. Right . . . .
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John M
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
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come on blah blah.. thats not what he said.
that place was a powder keg. it could have resulted in many people dying, which would have been a political nightmare. and a sad event. I'm glad that they backed off.
the bias in so many of the stories out there is sad. there are still stories coming out today that they killed his cows. and the stories that talk about the son getting taxed fail to mention that the son kick a police dog. I could be wrong, but I believe that police dogs are officers of the law, afforded the same protections. Kicking one should get you arrested. Not just taxed. Those officers were poorly trained.
It was a sad day all around.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
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Someone should have given that domestic terrorist a high volt cattle prod in the ass.
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John M
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
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Someone should have given that domestic terrorist a high volt cattle prod in the ass.
sad..
kind of sickening too.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
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So, what are the Feds doing there?
( besides menacing the locals )
Enforcing the law.
Maybe that scofflaw/mooch Bundy and his redneck sympathizers do not give two sheets about that, but a lot of people do.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
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come on blah blah.. thats not what he said.
that place was a powder keg. it could have resulted in many people dying, which would have been a political nightmare. and a sad event. I'm glad that they backed off.
John, your reason why the feds didn't arrest people (the "powder keg") is plausible, although I view it as unlikely. If the feds reasonably believed (that is, had evidence) that armed people from across the country came to the ranch to use force to prevent the feds from engaging in lawful conduct, and were illegally pointing weapons at feds, the feds should have arrested those people.
If they didn't, under those circumstances, the feds who made that decision should be removed from their offices for cowardice (or just failure to competently perform their jobs).
But that's not the reason Kos gave, he gave the old you-can't-expect-cops-to-arrest-everyone-who-commits-a-crime. That answer is certainly correct in some situations (think the Denver "420" powwow), but is ludicrous in the ranch situation.
Anonymous, boring, and knowitall is no way to go through life, son.
It's been working so far!
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
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Blah I'm sure many attendees had peaceful motives. But that kook on the overpass is a different story.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:58pm PT
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The BLM were not there to collect grazing fees. There were there to remove cattle from public land per a court order. And the Nevada State Constitution gives them the right. There is nothing noble about this. If you don't like the laws, make up an excuse to avoid them, right?. It is all about trying to get over on the man:
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Article 1, Section 2 of the Nevada Constitution:
All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair, subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.
**
Sure it was written during the civil war, but it is still the law in Nevada, so I guess he does not recognize the state either.
This is just another opportunist loser trying to get over on the man. So many sheeple looking for an excuse to get out their camo, flak vests, guns and sh*t. Too easy to manipulate even for a 70+ year old Mormon rancher. And so many people are willing to put lives on the line to defend him.
Oh well, at least gun and ammo sales are up.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
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I hear ya Locker.
This ain't rocket science.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
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The Feds aren't enforcing the law.
How come nobody has been arrested or cited for anything?
Like that idiot with the Kalashnikov? If he actually was pointing at the cops, why have we not heard of his arrest? Assault on a cop is a major felony. That's not something the cops let slide ever, especially for someone stupid enough to do it in front of multiple eyewitnesses and cameras.
So, why no arrests or tickets, if the Feds are there on a law enforcement mission?
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John M
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
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come on Chaz, the first order of business was to remove the cows.
just because there were no arrests doesn't mean the feds weren't enforcing the law.
did they fail in their job? Yep..
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
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Then how come the Feds let the cows they caught loose?
They caught a bunch of cows, then turned them loose back where they caught them.
So the Feds aren't there on a round-up mission either.
I'm just wondering WTF the Federal Government is doing there, besides stirring up the locals. And what's the point of that.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
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Chaz--you're saying what I'm thinking, perhaps more succinctly, so I'll shut up for now!
Kos, sorry to bore you!--I like shooting the sh#t on ST, I don't mean it as seriously as I sound. And I learn plenty on these threads--if I'm a know-it-all, I doubt I'm the worst offender here, ST's full of 'em.
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John M
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
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because it was a cluster f*#k and someone finally realized it. It was also a political time bomb and someone chickened out
blahblah.. so you believe the cops should just enforce the law, no matter what crazy outcome might occur?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
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I agree it is sad that a bunch of armed thugs can stop people from doing their job. But a bloodbath over cows is just plain stupid.
I think some of these people want to go out in some misguided "blaze of glory". I for one am glad common sense prevailed (so far).
Bundy will lose in the end. Let's hope he does not get anyone killed by his tactics.
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John M
climber
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
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But a bloodbath over cows is just plain stupid.
exactly..
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
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did you want the Feds to arrest everyone, blah?
that your preference?
personally, I believe the Feds made the right decision to back off and thus defuse it
but let's get back to the REAL issue: and that is Bundy is not above the law in refusing to pay his grazing fees for 20 years
why should he think he is special and all the other ranchers but him have to pay?
he had his hearings, he had opportunity to present his case in court, he lost
I don't get why some people defend him anyway, nobody should get the free ride he did
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 21, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
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OK I said I'd shut up (and I would have) but a few comments were addressed to me--
We'll have to monitor this story and see what happens.
Kos's analogy to a bank robbery with hostages is fine and I accept it.
Just as the cops don't (necessarily) go storming into the bank with hostages, neither do the cops say "looks like you got away with your brilliant hostage-taking plan, good luck with the money and have a nice life, we're going home now."
If the people who pointed guns at LEO's (without lawful justification) are subsequently arrested and convicted, I'll be happy to admit that the feds here may have done the right thing by deescalating the situation, but then arresting the criminals when practicable.
But if nothing happens regarding catching/charging these alleged criminals, will you be prepared to admit that the narrative (bad right-wing-militiamen-domestic terrorists were pointing guns at LEO's for no reason) is a little fishy?
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