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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 14, 2012 - 04:13am PT
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@AE,
it's too easy nowadays to lecture on what "fair means" means. And even today is, in my opinion, a very subjective concept as also Kennedy and Kruk have demonstrated. Preuss or Barber would say than no ascent today is a really "fair means" enterprise. During Maestri's time, ethics was not as standardized as today. Bolt ladders represented a forced path in Yosemite and Dolomites, before criticism buried this disputable style. The famous article of a young revolutionary rebel, Reinhold Messner, was published just in 1968. Today everybody can say that the Compressor route was opened in a bad style. Everybody can say that to free climb a route is a better style than to aid it. But these statements are only apparently true. Because the degree of engagement of a route and its epic character is not cencessarily measured with the style.
Many people look at the finger, forgetting the moon. They look at the style, ignoring the human experience. So, to climb a route, almost boltless, with an incredible weather pissing on the Maestri's achievement of the past, shows a strong immaturity and disrespect. And this is what many climbers (especially italians) are criticising. Climbers that, in other circumstances, would have approved the chopping.
@Donini,
I agree that many climbers writing here have not been in Patagonia. But also climbers who have been there criticized the KKK chopping. Here, the point, is not the chopping itself, but the principles behind KKK motivations. And if we are not brainless climbers, this is what we are supposed to discuss about.
Finally, I propose another contribution of an italian guide, who is a Garibotti's friend, and a Maestri's admirer. I don't share his opinion, but I agree when he says that a big part of misunderstanding is the fact that Maestri's books have never been translated in english. It's in italian, but I guess, with google translator, it's possible to understand.
http://marcellocominetti.blogspot.com/2012/02/k-operazione-cerro-torre-il-giorno.html
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 14, 2012 - 09:50am PT
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@healyje,
I understand that you disagree with me, but can explain your arguments with just more than one sentence of bare denial?
Because I provided facts. Bolt ladders set up in the mountains (Dolomites in Yosemite) before and after Maestri's Compressor route. Do you want the list again?
The difference of Compressor's route was the use of a drill with the support of a compressor. And this drove many climbers mad. I agree it was extremely outrageous. Nevertheless, his winter attempt and summer "success" was epic, in my arguable opinion. Bad style for an epic adventure.
Perhaps for your personal and subjective sensitivity Cerro Torre is something different. But I don't think this is an argument.
The bottom line is that you cannot whine and blame something happened 42 years ago, as an atrocity and insanity, using the bolts (even if few of them) and then chopping many of them in the name of freedom, ignoring locals opinion. This is just a joke son of arrogance, ignorance, foundamentalism and immaturity!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 14, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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Not sure what I can do or say other than to assure you one of us is using reaching, if not delusional rationalizations, in the matter. The bolts and the overwhelming judgment of them have both remained unaffected by the passage of time. Nothing you can say now can revise the reality of this overwhelmingly sad chapter in modern alpinism. Neither the Dolomites or the Valley are Patagonia and the name of the game down there was well-understood by the players at the time as corroborated here again and again by Maestri's contemporaries - there is simply no getting around the fact his actions were a complete break with those accepted standards.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Feb 14, 2012 - 10:17am PT
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I sat with Mike Bearzi on his brother's back porch in Bozeman the winter after his and EW's backdoor scoot up the Torre. We shared a couple of Camel straights and a couple of 'cheloebs after he showed the trip slide show to his family.
Yes, they used leashes. Fair means of the times. Free nonetheless. Yo.
Mike told to me how they literally just touched the summit - they didn't stand on it, just reached out and touched it. Then they got the fukk outta dodge because the lenticulars over the ice cap were training their sites on them.
Mike was a BAMF if ever there was one. RIP bro.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 14, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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@healyje
Not sure what I can do or say other than to assure you one of us is using reaching, if not delusional rationalizations, in the matter. The bolts and the overwhelming judgment of them have both remained unaffected by the passage of time. Nothing you can say now can revise the reality of this overwhelmingly sad chapter in modern alpinism. Neither the Dolomites or the Valley are Patagonia and the name of the game down there was well-understood by the players at the time as corroborated here again and again by Maestri's contemporaries - there is simply no getting around the fact his actions were a complete break with those accepted standards. I perceive a kind of religious aversion against bolts without appeal.
It comes to my mind a paradoxical climbing tale ... the legend John Bachar who consider his Bachar-Yerian bolted route as his boldest climbing achievement.
But going back to the Maestri's route. If Neither the Dolomites or the Valley are Patagonia , according to whom Cesare Maestri was supposed to adapt his ethical standard, learnt in Dolomites?
To the non-existing locals?
To the rivals who wanted to climb Cerro Torre before him?
Sorry dude, but I don't see much logic in your arguments, beside your irrational and religious opposition to the bolts.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 14, 2012 - 11:31am PT
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I love the Steph Davis comment on Greg Crouch blog
http://gregcrouch.com/2012/the-compressor-route-chopped-more-thoughts
I guess someone will believe that somehow she is italian inside ... ;-)
Hi Greg. Thanks for posting on this. I heard about Hayden’s and Jason’s nice ascent a few days ago and was (and still am) really happy for them. I heard about this chopping just now, and I am not happy about it at all. Frankly, it bursts the pleasant bubble of happiness I was carrying around after hearing of the ascent they made.
Maybe I’m confused, and communication can change stories. But what I understand is that the Compressor Route is no more because the guys chopped it. If this is truly the case, I think this situation is a real shame. First, I don’t think Americans should alter a (legendary) route in Argentina. That is extremely presumptuous, and as an American, it makes me feel embarrassed. David Albert’s comment basically sums this up. I would hope Argentines will not go fill pin scars, remove webbing and chop bolts on the Nose, the Salathe Wall, Moonlight Buttress or any of the other revered, classic routes in America that exist only thanks to metal and hammers. Somehow I doubt they will.
Second, I don’t approve at all of the message of this action, which to me says, “I did a better climb, and that makes me the Decider, and now that I’ve climbed this peak in my good way, I Decided that everyone must follow my style if they want to climb it.” That seems extremely presumptuous, and it makes me deeply uncomfortable.
I also loved the history of the Compressor Route, simply for the crazy, baroque nature of its story. Of all the classic routes down there, I never climbed it, and maybe I never would have gotten back down to Patagonia for it, but it was always floating around on the bottom of my list just to share the experience that so many have had, the legend of the Compressor Route. I spent a lot of time below those torres, and I pondered the spirit and the passion of that story many times. I definitely thought I’d climb it sometime, just to see it for myself. It bothers me that someone else just decided I won’t.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 14, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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@Dingus,
I know there is not relationship between the Bachar-Yerian and the Compressor's route ... but you have to realize that some people have a dogmatic opposition against bolts, regardless of the engagement of the route. Bolts, for them, represent the evil in climbing.
This is the impression that healyje gave to me.
So, that out-of-context comment was just to show the non-sense of that opposition.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 14, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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I tend to agree with your views on fundamentalism in climbing (or otherwise). I don't buy the deification of a mountain. Terms like 'the rape of Cerro Torre' are actually laughable.
I know you make ambiguity a point of pride, avoid absolutes like the plague, and assiduously stop just short of "I've never met a bolt I didn't like", but if you think it's about deifying CT then I'd say you're falling disappointingly short of the mark even for you. And if you think a 400-bolt, gas-powered industrial hauling operation up one of the world's most striking alpine peaks isn't a 'rape' then, please, by all means do ambivalently expound on the [comparative] insignificance of the event.
Then again, it's a pretty simple deal - either you find there to be something 'fundamentally' foul about the events of 1970 or you don't. Enzolino has veritable bushel basket of varied and sundry rationalizations (which are at least entertaining), would love to hear yours, but I suspect from what I know of your perspective that none are necessary.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 14, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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One day years ago the late great Kyle Copeland showed me a perfect splitter he discovered outside of Moab.
We climbed it and named the route Acromaniac.
Eventually, perhaps relying on subtle piton scars, the line went free.
But rather than bask in the notoriety of having made the first free ascent that person took the more self-aggrandizing course of renaming the route.
Now I hear that somebody who supported that action is assailing the "americans" that chopped the Maestri ladder for having removed history?
Hmmm,...
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Feb 14, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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@healyje,
I have another entertainment for you.
This is one of Maestri contemporaries ... or better ... post-contemporaries ... from the article the Compressor route doesn't really look like a "ferrata" ...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1029543/Cerro-Torre-FA-Alpine-Style-Brewer-Bridwell-Climbing-1980
A few interesting points:
"Where was the huge number of bolts the British had accused Maestri of placing ! Instead we encountered five or six clusters of hardware: clogs, pitons, rurps, cliffangers, fifi hooks, ice screws, even clog ascenders, and carabiners - so many carabiners we couldn't use them all. Fixed ropes trailed from the anchors, broken and shredded. They also were presumably left by the british team which had failed here in 1972." I wonder if leaving rubbish on the mountain has anything to do with respect for the mountain or "fair means" ...
"A strenuous overhanging bolt ladder followed. How had Maestri managed here? [...]
We had climbed 3500 feet already - more than the Nose of El Captain and nearly as difficult." Should we consider the Nose a ferrata as well?
The mushroom was sloped here, the difficulties reduced to a six-foot overhang of soft snow. People make such a big deal of the mushroom ... when it's very clear that some climbers find easy slopes and others an unsormountable, tall and overhanging pillar of ice ...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 14, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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Well, there you go. 'Anything goes' is an ethic I suppose, in that agnostic sort of way. I'm not interested in telling anyone else how to climb either, unless they're going to slather rock I'm interested in with bolts, because at that point they are telling other people how to climb.
P.S. 'The reality concerning their placement and use is simply a reflection of my ambiguity.'
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 14, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
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Like completely polluting the stone I want to climb with bolts where they're clearly unwarranted - yep, that qualifies as an 'unless' every time. But then I can see how a keen sense of ambivalence could leave one in a just-don't-clip'em state of mind where it's all good.
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Feb 15, 2012 - 05:17am PT
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@healyje
'm not interested in telling anyone else how to climb either, unless they're going to slather rock I'm interested in with bolts, because at that point they are telling other people how to climb.
now I can understand why you are so concerned
how unfortunate for you to have born in the wrong decade!!, I guess that 50 years ago (and with equipment of that age) you would certainly got to that summit and by that way without drilling the rock!
sure, I would have bet my balls
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 15, 2012 - 05:25am PT
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I guess that 50 years ago (and with equipment of that age) you would certainly got to that summit and by that way without drilling the rock!
Well, I can't really talk about fifty years ago, but thirty-eight years ago or today I'd walk away before drilling my way to the summit - what would be the point?
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uli__
climber
Milan, Italy
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Feb 15, 2012 - 06:11am PT
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Well, I can't really talk about fifty years ago, but thirty-eight years ago or today I'd walk away before drilling my way to the summit - what would be the point?
the point is that the conditional is overkill
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gug
Trad climber
Italy
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Feb 15, 2012 - 07:16am PT
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I think that the most important point is not if the Compressor Route was ethically acceptable or not, but if it is right to chop bolts from a route that is in any case part of the history of Alpinism and if so who is that must decide on that.
I love Alpinism and, whatever is the opinion on Compressor Route, I think that we cannot accept that two young men came from abroad can decide such a important matter. Maybe it is something that can be discussed by important alpinists in a certain area and I read that there was such a meeting in El Chalten and that the decision was not to chop that route. So the act of take away the bolts cannot be accepted by those ones who loves Alpinism otherwise every climber can decide on every route he dislike for whatever reason.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 15, 2012 - 09:09am PT
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Fixed that for you:
I love Alpinism and, whatever is the opinion on Compressor Route, I think that we can accept that two young men came from abroad can decide such a important matter.
The history argument is completely bogus -that the compressor was and is such an egregious exception within alpinism is what makes it open to chopping. Opinions on leaving it appear to be largely based on nationalistic and commercial interests or biased towards some mythical 'consensus' which will clearly never be realized. Under any wholly-dubious 'consensus' arrangement the bolts would never be chopped.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 15, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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From the 20th Piolets d'Or announcement:
...exploratory alpinism at a high technical level in minimal style undertaken with consideration for the environment.
Pretty much sums it up then as now with regard to CT...
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