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raymond phule
climber
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So the chief, the linguist. What did you mean with
"What about China, Russia, India and most of Africa including the ME"
Why did you you write "including"?
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raymond phule
climber
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I really don't know what to answer when you have already made my point.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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yeah, and is his avatar sig a set of bullet points that describe him or?
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raymond phule
climber
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Can someone try to explain to me what the chiefs point actually is? Maybe sketch or rick could give it a try? Or should I write "maybe sketch including rick could give it a try" Is that the correct form in the chief gibberish?
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raymond phule
climber
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Because I included the ME with all them other nations I posted in the lot that WILL NOT play your Carbon Tax game.
I just think that it sounds better with "USA and Canada" instead of "USA including Canada"
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raymond phule
climber
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but why should china including kongo refuse to pay the tax game when they are not really part of the tax game if the tax game is a toll?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
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Holy Moly, it's 90 degrees in Santa Cruz today. That's screaming hot for this town.
BUT no where near the record High temp of 103 for the month of October in Santa Cruz set back in 1983 or the original record of 101 set in 1917. It was also a pretty common occurrence from 1921 on back to 1900 when temp records first began in Santa Cruz long before any of this AGW hysteria ever came to be.
 The Chief
The average monthly high in October for Santa Cruz is 73 degrees.
Pop quiz, The Chief. In your quote above, are you talking about the weather or the climate?
Yet another scorcher day here in Santa Cruz. Dry as a bone ...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2014 - 02:07pm PT
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I would venture to say it is as you're talking about... weather.
Unless, of course, I'm talking about the long range trend.
And what do you think that might be?
The average monthly high in October for Santa Cruz is 73 degrees. What do you think the average temp for Oct will be this year?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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"we tax their goods and they then they decide to no longer sell them to us. They then will find markets other than us that will not tax their goods."
No, we are their biggest market by far. The first world leaders of the WTO should hold most of the cards in a new climate treaty. Much of the economy of the 2nd world is based on exports to us.
However, since we in the USA have such minimal carbon taxes right now, it actually correct our own economy to increase them to pay for external costs, without even considering other countries and climate change issues.
Read the article Ed posted about the IMF study of carbon taxes on the top 20 countries.
http://blog-imfdirect.imf.org/2014/09/17/carbon-pricing-good-for-you-good-for-the-planet/
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2014/wp14174.pdf
(ii) discusses the external costs - separate IMF study.
Figure 1 is the basic concept of what is gained with a tax.
Figure 6 is one calculation of how much fuels are undertaxed, (not counting GHGs)
China is indeed included, and will need carbon taxes added.
I assume all these suggested taxes would go up proportionally for any amount added for the average external costs of GHGs.
It would seem that if a skeptic is to argue that lack of world agreement is the problem, then those skeptics should be working as hard as anyone on getting a world agreement.
Also I am talking about a revenue neutral tax. All additional taxes taken in are subtracted from income or soc. sec. taxes, so there is no additional revenue for the government to waste.
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raymond phule
climber
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No the worst polluter is the world without china.
You also changed the subject as usual.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Why do we hold the cards?
My reason is that we the first world have all the buying power which is all that counts. That is simple economic truth. A tax on the wholesale price of motherboards or shoes won't make much difference to the US economy. I hardly need a quote from renown economist Charles Koch to back me up.
What is your reason that China is in control of the WTO?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Try the newspaper. What do you think is the intent of the UN climate talks that will continue next year?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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sketch - Europe has already done that. How do you explain it?
Your complaint is not with the US negotiators. It is difficult for those in favor of actually accomplishing something to compete in the US with the no-nothings who are often elected.
In the US, the no-nothings and the ignorant electorate are the root problem.
The only way it can work is for Congress to actually back a good global enforceable agreement, and not just complain, and use it as an excuse for simpleton electioneering.
You can argue that we will always have these people.
That is not a reason to join them.
chief-
when I say WTO or UN, I am generalizing among those who make international agreements. It will require cooperation between different agencies. That will also include ratification by each country's Congress or Parliament (or Party). Read up on how we passed the Montreal protocol to preserve the ozone layer. http://www.wunderground.com/resources/climate/holefaq.asp#montreal http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10962247.2013.791349?queryID=%24%7BresultBean.queryID%7D&#.VC8qAYt0w6Y I tend to say UN may set goals, but only groups like the WTO have significant enforcement powers towards fair trade (where everyone does their part on GHGs).
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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^^^^
typical denier response indicating desire to be part of the problem instead of the solution.
How do you intend to help achieve results?
Why was Montreal successful?
Did you not know that in the US, as in most countries, the leader/president/PM is in charge of their rep to both the UN and WTO?
Furthermore, as was already said, it is in each country's own best interest to at least tax enough to pay for its own external costs, not even counting climate change, as discussed in that IMF article.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Amazing you say.
What government has an honest track record?
Not ours ,aye?You know the one you served for and get paid by to this date.
You and I do not and will not agree on AGW,at all.
All good.
But being anti anything must sure be good for you as your prosperity was mentioned 3 posts ago.
It really is going to harsh you and your's gig when carbon taxes hit the states .
Better pray there are denier rallys with remarkable turnouts,for a change is going to come.
Yes ,Amazing.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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[ Just cus I do not see eye to eye with you AZZHATs regarding AGW, does not mean I am part of the problem.]
That is awesome on a personal level, although not on your language skills.
To clarify, the problem I am talking about is societal change, not individuals, even if I am quite conservation minded myself.
Significant climate change solutions are not going to happen with personal volunteer efforts. That is the guaranteed outcome with a tragedy of the commons. Have you seen the luxury car market in China? What will decrease coal burning for electricity?
It doesn't make a lot of difference if you or I act voluntarily, if most others won't.
Why are mpg requirements increasing?
Would most people voluntarily give up their 15-25 mpg vehicle without prices/taxes or regulatory requirements?
Obviously not.
USA fuel economy rose from the 70s to mid 80s because of high fuel prices. Then from 1986 to 2006, despite big increases in technology, actual vehicle mileage went DOWN. People just bought bigger & more powerful vehicles.
If a bunch of people are excessively pumping groundwater, and there is no group agreement to restrict everyone, it won't accomplish a lot for one person to act. They can be a good example, and will be prepared for when the aquifer is gone, but there will still be many who will only stop pumping on the day their well goes dry.
On whether climate change policy will work well:
DOes the possibility that it might fail mean there is no point in trying?
Why climb? - you might fail.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Most proponents of significant carbon taxes are talking about revenue neutral taxes. So any arguments about government wasting money are tangents, as that problem already exists. Government waste is really a separate argument. You could just as easily say the a carbon tax has already been paid back by Bush's tax cuts. All taxes and subsidies are fungible. Which means all budgets, taxes, EITs, revenues, credits, loopholes, brackets, deductions, expenses, etc: -
all have to be looked at as a WHOLE.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Trust me.
That is laughable.
You can read into it any way you would like.It is still coming.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
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It is difficult for those in favor of actually accomplishing something to compete in the US with the no-nothings who are often elected.
You mean people like our black muslim socialist President?
No. Actually it's the obstructionist, science-denying, bought and sold, dumb-as-a-box-of-bait GOP Congressmen and Congresswomen.
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