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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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Yeah why serve in Heaven when you can rule in Hell? The downside is you have to have Fattrad as your minion.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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If one is not successful in this life will he get another chance in next life? ( according to Christianity)
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
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Successful from repeated birth & death in the material world.
If one develops an animalistic consciousness in this life the next birth that person can get the body of an animal.
You can come back as dog.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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Reincarnation was not made a heresy in the Christian Church until 551 A.D.
Before that it was widely accepted among both Christians and Jews.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
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so obviously allegory, metaphor, and simile are important literary devices for communicating important and sometimes difficult concepts. All literature has instances of this, the Bible especially, "The Lord is my Shepard..." is allegorical, not literal. C.S. Lewis, as Cragman pointed out above, used allegory extensively to portray various aspects of religious, christian, concepts.
Until Herodotus in 440 BCE, there was no executed concept of writing a history in the western world. The first line: These are the researches of Herodotus of Halicarnassus, which he publishes, in the hope of thereby preserving from decay the remembrance of what men have done, and of preventing the great and wonderful actions of the Greeks and the Barbarians from losing their due meed of glory; and withal to put on record what were their grounds of feuds.
So the idea of "history" appeared after the writing of the old testament and was a relatively new idea at the time of the writing of the new testament. The new testament does not appear to be an attempt at written history a la Herodotus, but more in line with the story telling of the old testament; it is written more to teach and explain through characterization than to recount factual aspects of the people.
What I am getting at is the dividing line between "fact" and "metaphor" or "allegory." How does one decide to take a story one way or the other?
In the idea of deconstruction, it is difficult, if not impossible, to untangle the text from the receiver of the text, that is, the reader has much to put into the understanding as the writer.
Isn't this problematic for texts that are claimed to be authoritative, especially if there are claims of divine provenance?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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Cragman-
If I'm not mistaken, Protestants always claim they are practicing the Christianity of the earliest years before the Catholics changed it, so why the emphasis now on being modern?
In fact it was an ecumenical council of Catholic and Orthodox Bishops who decided to condemn reincarnation even though it was taught by Origen who is still regarded as a doctor of the church?? Of course we can't be sure what he taught as they destroyed all of his original works on the subject.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:11pm PT
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WBraun- "You can come back as a dog"
With all due respect Werner.
You are barking up the wrong tree.
I would suggest another tree.
The tree on Calgary!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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TheFet- "Why serve in Heaven when you can rule in Hell"?
There will be no rule in Hell.
Hell is cruel!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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Ed H.
so obviously allegory, metaphor, and simile are important literary devices for communicating important and sometimes difficult concepts.
This is especially significant when looking at the lengths to which organized religions have gone to suppress non-canonical, yet philosophically important writings. When the local cult is the only game in town, it is relatively easy for its leaders to keep everyone in neat rank and file. As soon as cultures began to overlap, giving birth to history, this complacency was ruined and competing war gods became necessary. As conflict between incompatible ideologies grew exponential, things got really nasty and messy, and they still are. For those who emphasize all the love and goodwill of Christ, one still can't ignore the fact that Yahweh is still huffing and puffing in the background, promising an eternity of torment to anyone who doesn't get in line. There is always that implied threat of violence to the self, which can of course be a great motivator. Woof.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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Cragman- "C.S. Lewis' description that I shared a few day's ago, is an
allegory".
I was fully aware of that Cragman.
It is easy for Believer's to grasp what C.S. is implying.
I was looking at the way GO interpreted it.
"looking out at Hell"
GO missed the allegory, and took it literally.
"Earth is Hell"!
So I attempted to explain that was not....see above.
I should of took it one step further and attempted to clarify C.S.'s meaning.
Here goes.
Another version:
The closest the Lost are going to get to Heaven, is here on earth.
The closest the Saved are going to get to Hell, is here on earth.
I new C.S. Lewis is saying the same thing, it just that it can be easily
misinterpreted.
I didn't mean to disqualify your version, it just came over as....well, I
think you under stand what I am trying to say.
Please except my apology.
Sincerely, JM.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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Subconciously, I always think of it as Veil of Tears, (was that the name of a Somerset Maughm Novel?) as if someone is masking something,(Emotions, true nature) with tears. vale/valley of tears. Vail of tears might mean you can't ski champagne powder.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
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Cragman!
That was very Harsh of me.
And was an insult to you (and CS)
It also caused division amongst the Brotherhood and confusion elsewhere.
Please except my apologies.
I feel his allegory is an excellent one for Believer's, for it should spur their desire to love and win the lost.
Well I am going to have some explaining to do should I cross paths with Mr. Lewis in the hereafter.
Perhaps you could act the intermediary and bring some Peace between us,should it be so (most likely will, we will be together for eternity).
Peace Brother!
Sincerely, The Merest of All.
P.S. Don't let me slide so easily from here on out!
Git on my azz for such infractions.
Thanks Again, Seven.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Cintune- "one still can not ignore the fact that Yahweh is still huffing and puffing in the background..."
Are you admitting there is a Yahweh?
He is not huffing and puffing, He is grieving, deeply.
He loves you as much as he loves me.
He is promising an Eternity of bliss.
Like I said earlier He will set it up here on earth for 1,000 yrs. initially.
Think of all the routes you can do. And all the powder. And all the barrels you can get tucked into.
Think about it.
I am talking Truth, 1,000 years.
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Marc Sisko
Trad climber
SE Warsh
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Oct 24, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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U have got to be kidding...this debate is still going on when most of the physical evidence (missing links, DNA, 2nd law of thermodynamics, etc.,; and the sheer order, complexity, and beauty in nature that blows away all man made creations) clearly points in one direction.
The hypothesis that the universe came out of nowhere and formed all by itself without intelligent direction is the most ridiculous idea ever to gain widespread traction...I don't know how a sincere thinker can accept it.
I'd be nice to go bouldering. Be careful, check your knots, and tie the ends together
Marc
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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Cragman!
Just wondering if you saw my post to you at 1:54 a.m. it does some explaining?
And Jaybro's post at 2:24 a.m. with two links to Wikipedia regarding the Vale of tears/Vail of Tears.
Interesting.
If you get the time.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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777
Yahweh was based on the Mesopotamian creator-god Enki or Ea. The earliest authors of the Bible took old Sumerian myths and rewrote them to provide an ex-post-facto basis for the Israelite culture. Most of the Old Testament (particularly the Torah) is a carefully edited recap of earlier Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian myths, in which the other gods of the old Middle Eastern pantheons were demoted to the status of angels and devils, while Enki/Yahweh was raised into monotheistic prominence.
So he exists the same way Hamlet or Captain Ahab exist. In our imaginations, as preserved through literature.
And all the barrels you can get tucked into.
???
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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Marc, do you pray to your intelligent director?
Considering the vastness of this universe, I consider the idea of a personal god vain and absurd.
An intelligent director might be more probable than a personal god, but there is no more actual evidence for one or the other, and I think a lot of religious folks are going to find it unsatisfying because it doesn't meet their desperate needs.
Everything was once thought to be held together instant to instant by divine will alone because people then didn't understand the underlying rules, structures and processes.
Now that we know some of the rules, structures and processess there are people who look at the overwhelming, mind-boggling complexity (which no one fully understands) and say it all must have been put in motion by a great intelligence.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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Jaybro-"as if someone is masking something (Emotions,true nature) with tears."
This could be true.
But aren't tears elicited by emotion.
We have all seen examples of crocodile tears.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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We only have this life to accept Jesus, the way to the father!
The goal is to praise God and the Son in word and deed, heart, soul, and mind, and we will get to do that in heaven forever!
Edit: thx Cragman!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Oh yeah, but I knew you got my point, when you mentioned crocodile tears. Is this similar to the Tears of a clown?
Digression; one time at band camp, I mean burning man, this guy walked by us in full clown make up sobbing, loudly, touchingly, theatrically.
My Buddy CoolBreeze, Sez, "Ah, the tears of a clown make the whole world smile."
In a lilting, affected, San Francisco kind of voice, (if you catch my drift) the clown replied "trite, very trite!" then giggled.
I think one of the important parts of life is to be part of the dance...
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