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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:22pm PT
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Hi Klaus,
Intentional. I was looking at the history of free climbing on the South Face. Lost Again, as I recall, is mostly aid. Cataclysmic Megashaer (spelling? It was "-eer" on the topo I saw) has four pitches of aid, big ladders of holes.
And I don't believe I ever saw any info on Road Rage. Please tell me about that one -- I'd love to hear.
Some inconsistency in that I wrote about Karma, which has some aid, but I believe much less than any of yours.
I was really tempted, still am, by Cataclysmic because the photos of the free climbing are so mouthwatering, and it goes up an interesting part of the wall. I'd love to hear more about it, too. More photos? Upper pitches? Shoot, we'd even settle for more of "Miss Kalus 2000."
And tell us about Lost Again too. Even though it seems to be the most aided climb of the lot, it takes a part of the wall that you, alone, have ever seen.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:34pm PT
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DR said:
"All due respect to John Bachar and others who want to define this differently so they can underscore their -- not our -- view that this was, somehow, not a FA. You, John, brought hook drilling into the Park. Could be considered a taint from the venerable perspective of drilling on stance. I'm fine with it, it's now accepted, and I consider the Bachar-Yerian one of the great leaps forward in Yosemite climbing. A worthy follow on to your first free ascent of Astroman. "
With all due respect, the BY was still an "ascent" (5.11, A1). I started at the bottom and got to the top. On "Growing Up", the party couldn't make it to the top - i.e. they couldn't ascend it. They went to the top and lowered a ladder down. Then they "ascended" the ladder.
The Emperor's New Top Rope! You can't see it but it's still there....
I'm not saying that's good or bad. It is what it is but the party failed to ascend the face. They did ascend the face with a ladder lowered from above. That's all.
peace, jb
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:16pm PT
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"Did Pianna (sic) and Skinner not go back and do the Salathe in total after they worked the parts?"
Now there's a question, albeit in a bait and switch format...
BTW, Cheers Scuffy, you took the words ( thst I was trying to form) out of my mouth...
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:51am PT
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BADA BOOM BADA BING!
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:45am PT
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Again, Do you really think I wasn't capable of climbing the upper wall ? Shall we go climbing together sometime ? Not to sound like a hotshot becauase I'm not and don't really care to be.
I heard stories of $10,000 being offered in the past if someone could follow you around in the past. Shall we go that route ?
Hey, if I'm sounding pissed, I'm not. I already got pissed before and regret that. I really do respect the the achievements of all the baddasses in the past. And the badasses now for that matter. John, Scott, and everyone else.
The sh#t you guys did is nothing short of amazing. That doesn't mean that everyone has to do things the way you did. That doesn't mean you make all the rules for the rest of the world. Period.
More poeople climb my routes now and more people will always climb my routes. That's what I want to happen on my routes. That's always what I've wanted on all my routes.
I could write on and on....... I'm not going to change anyone and don't want to. Noone's going to change me either. I'm not running around the valley grid bolting and niether is anyone else. Nor will I or anyone else.
Instead of rambling on and on, I guess I'll go make a topo tonight. I can't find the one that I Know I do have. That will probly give people a bunch more to complain about and surely drive this thread up and over 2,000.
CARRY ON !!!!!
Peace,
Sean.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:54am PT
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Hey Scott,
I never wrote back and said thanks for the invite on dinner and beer. THANKS !!!
I've thought long and hard about this. I have no intention to go and argue or try to convince you of anything. You are you and I am me. I'm very open to hearing your thoughts about anything.
You've been in this game for a long time and I'm sure I'll learn alot by listening and would love to do just that.
Again, Thanks for the offer !
My schedule is stupidly busy right now but somewhere in the somewhat near future I do need to go to L.A. I'll let you know when that is.
Peace,
Sean.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:28am PT
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On the Rockclimbing.com version of this thread, Aaron posted this reply and I thought it was a perspective that weighs in for what it's worth.
"Isn't it ironic that a sport that prides its self as being an outlet of counterculture, should demand such a level of conformity of its players.
I receive a great deal of satisfaction knowing that the routes I've developed, have been and will be enjoyed by many. Going to the crag and seeing people on my routes having a good time is reward enough for me to keep on developing quality routes.
Personally, I don't see the appeal or justification of the old school way of route development. Sure I could have developed more of my routes on lead, and it would have been a great adventure for me, and ONLY me, sadly the finished product would have been crap and the adventure and the quality would have been robbed for any repeat assentionist. For me, this practice is selfish, and the routes would stand as being nothing more then a shrine to my ego.
Perhaps what we're seeing in the development of this route on half-dome is a shift of thinking away from the old school way of thinking. A way of thinking that was fundamentally rooted in naivity of their sports development and future. In the past route developers put up routes with the understanding that they would be the first and last accentionist of their line. Isn't it amazing to think that when asked if the Norse would ever be repeated Warren Harding said that he wouldn't believe that anyone would go through all that effort for the second accent.
Unlike their forefathers, the developers of this route recognized that they are not alone it the climbing world and they put up a route that is a reflection of this.
For that I respect them.
Aaron. "
I have to admit, I respect that attitude. Good routes often get climbed by thousands of people and that counts for something. Their adventure, their experience. It counts. Climbing can be a selfish sport but it doesn't always have to be about Me, Me, Me
Peace
karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:54am PT
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Posting in a thread that is being reported as journalism in a climbing mag.
Also, climbing is not a sport.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:32am PT
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"Also, climbing is not a sport."
Golf is a sport, that's why they make the big bucks.
You could lose your mind playing Golf, very dangerous.
Climbing on the other hand, is pathological,
a disease of increasing internal feedback loop addiction, monkeys with monkeys on their backs....
Hmmm. maybe that's going too far..
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 18, 2008 - 04:12am PT
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This risk of losing your mind from golf comes from boredom.
And chemical poisoning.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 18, 2008 - 07:17am PT
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Aaron's perspective is one of someone who only knows doing FA's of bolted routes. He sounds as if he's never looked for a natural crack line in his life. Bolted climbs are the place that can leave a climb of such and such a perfectly crafted "product" for all these climbers coming later who love a well crafted clip up.
Traditional free climbers developed a sense of not pounding the rock into submission because of all the great natural weaknesses there were to follow. Climbers who come later can have as much adventure as they like or they can in many cases pour in as much protection as they like, to the point of flaming out or running out of gear. (I fully understand that the upper half of SFHD is not such a place)It is a natural progression for such free climbers to carry this thinking to the places where cracks ran out, don't pound the stone into submission, keep it brave, test myself, AND those that follow me.
The counterculture aspect of climbing is still quite strong. No one demands "such" a level of conformity, but rather a loose set of guiding principles. It is silly for anyone from this "new wave" to think that there isn't plenty of opportunity for abuse with these tactics, as there have been with other climbing tactics over the years.
I can come to your favorite crag and fix a rope, whack and dangle around on my favorite 10d for a few days, and then rap in from above and place a few more bolts on it. We're in a new age right? There are no rules, and I'm only thinking of craftsmanship and having a better product for all the climbers who come after us. You couldn't tell me not to do that because it wasn't the "first" ascent. Hey, I have a better feel for my caliber and climbers of my caliber in the future will appreciate the added bolts. There are no rules. Your argument that I have to follow what the first ascent guys did would hold no water, because there are NO rules.
It's arrogant to suppose that climbers of the past have no sense of their sports development and future! WTF? Modern gym climbers have a better sense of our sports "development" and future? Also very very few climbers of the past ever thought that theirs would be the only ascent, forever, of their route. That's just not a true statement. So Warren Harding said that, so what? He doesn't speak for all climbers from the past.
In climbing routes put up in traditional style, I never felt that the FA guys had lessened my experience by not placing a bolt where I might have liked one.
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Steve Wolford
Trad climber
White Salmon, WA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 10:35am PT
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Sounds like a awesome route. Climbing is what its all about. Times change. I think these guys made the right call.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 10:39am PT
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Kevin makes some good points. What's the difference between a ladder established from the ground or one lowered from the top? Just that - one goes up and one is lowered down. Visually they are perhaps the same.
I guess I'm just too simplistic in my overall view of "ascensionism" - you either make it to the top or you don't. If you lower down and prepare the route, then you've avoided the challenge and are no longer climbing in the strict definition (the simple definition).
In the end, I think that's what attracted me to the sport (game, activity, etc.). It was the purity of it. You get to the base of the rock and try to climb it. You make it or you don't. Like surfing a big wave, you make it or you don't (no top ropes from helicopters or help from hidden submarines). If you decide to drill a bolt ladder, at least it's honest and makes a statement about your climbing style. Personally I would go down at that point and wait until I got good enough to avoid doing that but each climber must make their own decision. If you go top down, you run away from that crucial decision. Get better or lower the climb to your level? Weird perhaps but that's my warped view.
Sometimes I feel like the kid in the Tale of the Emperor's New Clothes, where everybody sees the clothes except the kid, and the kid is the only one who sees that the Emperor is naked and says so to the rest of the people, "Yo, the Emperor is naked."
Curse or blessing? I don't know, it's just how I am so I apologize to any for my brash commentary. I don't mean any harm - I guess I'm still wrestling with my own demons!
Thanks for bringing this stuff up Coz, and thanks for the discussion everybody!
Cheers, John
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 18, 2008 - 10:48am PT
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I think that Sean would not have anz problem climbing the route ground up...he just chose to do it in a different style...nothing wrong with that.
As to the brotherhood of climbers...I was just in Panama..read a short piece about climbing and took my shoes and chalkbag. When with my wife to bouldered at this one crag and ran into a local who was guiding. Ask me if I would like to climbed and offered a harness and rope. Took up the offer and climbed a few routes...when back a few days later and ran into him again..offered me a rope again and got to climb on some harder routes...quite a surpise for me and a great exerpience for me to meet him and climb...as I was leaving I offered him my chalkbag and he thanked me.
Small world.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 11:11am PT
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Survival nails it: A "counterculture" mindset does not mean that anything and everything goes and that there is no set of guiding principles. So what are the core, guiding principles of Yosemite climbing? How about these:
1. No chipping or gluing
2. Ground up ascents
These basic ethics have largely protected Yosemite climbing from the type of route proliferation that is common at many other crags. Are these ethics reasonable and is it reasonable for the local community to want to maintain them? The answer is yes on both counts. Fact: Yosemite has an airy, larger than life feel, quite a different feel from the opposite extreme of grid bolted cliffs. This feel is to be valued. It should be respected and protected, as it is a unique resource.
From the FA:
“I've done alot of new routes and used alot of different tactics in doing so. ALWAYS putting the finished product in mind above all other things.”
That’s nice, always looking out for others. In their defense, there will be climbers on HD who will have a great experience, climbers who otherwise would have been on something less majestic. But if climbs like GU are the front edge of a wave, let it be known that SU and the like come at a price as they erode the atmosphere that makes Yosemite an amazing, unique place.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 11:27am PT
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SlipK - while I agree that Yosemite is a very special place, it is difficult not to view the issues with GU, as you have framed them, as a part of the larger issue of development in the Valley. While a designated "wilderness area," it has a $500/night hotel, a supermarket, etc, once even a golf course (I believe, if not, it is easy to think it could have been true).
The debate as to how far to go in providing access, whether it be climbing or just visiting, has raged on for decades. A ban on bolting would seriously reduce route production, would increase the number of R/X routes, and increase climber violations. On the other hand, it would restore Yosemite climbing back to more "natural" means, at the expense of access to all climbers. Similarly, a reduction of NPS and vendor infrastructure would provide a more natural experience of the Valley, but severely restrict visitor access.
We won't solve this conundrum here, even in 2000 posts... even though Pratt thought 6 climbers and 6 bears might hold civilization back...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 18, 2008 - 11:28am PT
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Well said, Kevin. I second that with enthusiasm!
I too always try to climb in the most stark style, ground up, fewest tools. My head goes to pieces on me soloing, so I'm usually stuck with a rope and a rack. And not barefoot, 'cuz John's got me addicted to his shoes. Rarely carry bolts; I like natural lines, follow cracks mostly.
But I also love slabs. The starkness and the purity and the runouts all get to me in the best way. Maybe that's my demon, that leads me to bolts, that...never mind! Back to why we're 1500 posts into this.
Anyway, John, gotta thank you also for dragging your demons out here in public. By putting it that way, I get to bring out my demons too, the ones that led me to this "who'da thunk" big surprise in my life of dangling on a cord whacking on the drill. I'm good with being here, just surprised is all.
And this is even better because by chewing on our demonology we get to descend into the uncertainty of the rabbit hole. That leads us to sketchier terrain than the simplistic place where we're in danger of acting like two old goats bashing each others brains to jelly by the old butt-heads-and-repeat formula.
It's a high step here, but I think we found a better line.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 11:45am PT
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Tow-ins are a pretty good analogy for rap bolting though.
Hahahaha Are you serious? hahaha
Those monster waves they get towed into won't find one person here with the balls to surf one of those 50 to 80 foot beasts.
Better keep surfing outa this.
Who started this law or rule behind no top down anyways?
C'mon who's behind it, c'mon spit it out. Somebody's behind it.
Wasn't the NPS that's for sure, who started the ban on Power Drills? It wasn't the land managers, that's for sure.
Hee hee hee
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:01pm PT
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Werner,
You just love pulling the tail, don't you? No answers, even the questions are slippery. It's all about the well placed needle with you. You should be a frickin' acupuncturist!!
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