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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Perhaps, but rather how did we get here?
If you mean population-wise then I'd say the answer's at hand in your pocket.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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The question remains: without any knowledge of good or evil how can Adam know/understand the nature or righteousness of obedience or even the necessity of obedience?
Adam does not have to understand anything at all about the nature or purpose of why and how he must obey ----only that he must. Non-negotiable.
It is a situation on the order of magnitude of a man telling his little son not to stick his finger in an electrical socket. A detailed explanation of the lethal nature of electrocution is impossible for 4 year old.
That's why I find so one-dimensional and uninteresting about the core relationship of God and man in the Bible. But, on the other hand, this relationship is never even once portrayed as anything other than father/child . Just like the obediance issue, there is no attempt to bait and switch,or to sugar-coat. In other words, Adam is a child who must obey.Period.
This must be necessary for a categorical assertion of Monotheism 101 in one form or another. The basics components must be something elemental and universal in the human psyche and yet contain the social mechanism of enforcing uniformity and purpose.
If you wanted to start a new religion from scratch then it would be advisable to make all the primary elements somewhat starkly simple, lacking discernible contrasts, and patently unambiguous.
For starters.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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If you mean population-wise then I'd say the answer's at hand in your pocket.
I have nothing in my hand in my pocket right now.
If you are referring to my pecker and whether I have contributed to the graphic you posted, I have no offspring.
Maybe loose change?
Clarify, please.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sound innocent enough to me...
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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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Religipoly!
A fun new game for the whole family!
Build your own god and religion!
Make a cool new God to worship just like Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, Thor, or Einstein!
Mix and match or create you're own!
Get the fun new game everyone's playing at you're local retailers and you're family will have hours of fun creating a likable deity everybody will love! *
*Persecution and terrorist retaliation sold separately.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Thanks, jgill. Yes, the mathematical part of the universe contains infinities, even within an infinitesimally short line segment, and perhaps the physical universe has more room than I think. I remember reading once about, "the total number of elementary particles in the (known?) universe" and it was 10 to the 80th, or so. That may be a misleading statement, taken the wrong way by me the layperson to suggest a finite universe. The question of whether time divides into ever shorter intervals might still be pure metaphysics.
However, if the universe has a finite number of parts which change state in stepwise intervals, then we can write numbers large enough to enumerate all the possible universes. I could be wrong but I like to make bold statements in hopes of being corrected and learning something new.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Adam does not have to understand anything at all about the nature or purpose of why and how he must obey ----only that he must.
Again, if Adam knew it was wrong/evil to disobey God he had an understanding prior to eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil of the nature of same. How could he not? He received the order after all. That order implies a moral/power relationship between a man and his creator: you must obey on penalty of death. it is wrong, bad, evil to not obey.
The result of that act (in Christian theology) is a cursed nature: nature as a thorny manifestation of original sin.
The importance of the creation myth is this grappling with the source of good and evil. in Genesis you have an indication that good and evil are non existent in a state of paradise. Their knowledge takes us out of the garden of paradise.
In Buddhism you find nirvana by putting aside desire and loathing (good and evil).
On this thread some science types have made the argument that good and evil are but human constructs and don't really exist at all except as relative experience.
What difference between these notions of the nature of good and evil? I see very little. in each of them the bonds of good and evil are a fetter that keeps us from paradise, nirvana, and neo-modernist, scientific utopia.
One wonders to what degree the philosophies/methods of science are tainted with the very religious/mythological notions they claim to disdain.
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WBraun
climber
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Good and evil exist eternally.
In the material world they are opposites in the modes of duality.
On the absolute platform they are both the source of bliss.
How can evil ever be blissful?
The gross materialists can not understand the Absolute because they dwell in the world of duality.
Thus they remain forever bewildered in the fog of those illusionary energies .....
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WBraun
climber
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Nope ... zero is the center.
But on each side is either positive or negative.
The positive side has individuality and so does the negative.
The material world operates in the negative
Your computer runs only on zeros and ones and how you arrange them.
The impersonalists all want to go to zero the cessation of all activities.
No sane person would go there (zero) for a sane person is by natural always active.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Interesting. I wonder how that would sound in the language of reality. Whatever it is that we know, we believe that we know more. Confirmation bias is our friend. Unless we fall.
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WBraun
climber
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No we didn't say them same thing essentially.
I say zero is not the Absolute .....
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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You'll need to add a step function entitled "Robot Apocalypse" to the human version of that population graph. I wonder how long it will take them to wipe us out?
There is no argument for the existence of absolute good and evil beyond a religious one. One need only rewind 7 million years and start labeling things 'good' or 'evil' to see just how ridiculous that argument is without the existence of gods, which in itself has some issues of its own.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Again, if Adam knew it was wrong/evil to disobey God he had an understanding prior to eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil of the nature of same. How could he not? He received the order after all. That order implies a moral/power relationship between a man and his creator: you must obey on penalty of death. it is wrong, bad, evil to not obey.
The only understanding that Adam possessed before Eve gave him the fruit was that the tree was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that eating it's fruit is forbidden since it will result in death.God told him this:
You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Again, my comparing this to teaching a child not to put his/her finger in an electrical outlet is apt. The kid cannot hope to understand the nature of electricity ,just as Adam at this stage has no understanding of good and evil.None. Therefore the situation is like a father trying to adequately explain the lethality of electrocution to a small child. The father knows this is an impossible task so he frames in the simplest terms "...for when you eat from it you will surely die".
One wonders if even this statement is capable of being properly understood by Adam, just as dying would be to a very young child. Adam at this stage is unaware of death since there is no record of God detailing for him what death is ,nor has he experienced death observationally. Therefore how can the threat of dying hold any real sting in preventing disobedience?
Even after the fruit is consumed the authors of Genesis went to great lengths to preserve this tale as categorically a matter of rank disobedience on Adams part. They set the stage by introducing Eve immediately after the tree and God's prohibition.
The real downfall is thereby shifted to Eve. She is the one tantalized by the serpent and the fruit and the forbidden knowledge it will bring. This allows Adam to be preserved in a strictly obedient/disobedient standby mode. This use of Eve for this instrumental purpose at this precise juncture is almost purely a literary device. Although later it would be expanded to mean other things, as we all know.
These ancient authors felt that all this was very important--- the centrality and simplicity of understanding that only one factor , disobedience, was at play in Adam's ,and therefore mankinds separation from God--in that it set the stage for the resultant decree from God and the banishment of Adam and all his possessions---including nature itself ,which God had gifted to Adam before the fall.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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The importance of the creation myth is this grappling with the source of good and evil. in Genesis you have an indication that good and evil are non existent in a state of paradise. Their knowledge takes us out of the garden of paradise.
On the surface the Adam and Eve story wrangles the mind. God gives Adam a paradise without indication of G&E. Where he need not earn his bread by the sweat of his brow. Adam was free living harmoniously with Nature and walking with the animals. And the Law was laid; 'Adam you are free to partake of all the fruits of paradise,Except this ONE! Now when God split this Atom, i mean Adam. This new half of Adam had not heard God's voice and Law directly. Maybe Adam not knowing good&evil stumbled in bringing the Law to his 'better' half? Consequently Eve heard it from the animals. And found nothing wrong with the beautiful fruit and without consultation with Adam, she took it upon her own free-will to consume. Isn't it true when a Atom or Cell is split it looses purity? And the more times it is split becomes more diluted?
These are just my musings.
But we sould not only look to Adam for our incompleteness. God tells us Lucifer through his Will caused the Fall of order by grace
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And how is it this isn't simply called mythology like any other? It bends the mind that anyone can take these sorts of fables as anything but that.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Below is a fairly long treatise on dualism by the third chinese patriach of zen. It is very famous and is IMO the crux of zen and the relationship of dualism and non-dualistic views. It gets at the good vs evil issue and It is basically what werner is talking about when discussing a non-dualistic view. I don't know when the third patriach lived ( maybe 600 AD?). It reminds me of Mike L's explanations and emphasizes the experience is before thinking.
HSIN HSIN MING
The Great Way* is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised. Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart. If you wish to see the truth, then hold no opinions for, or against, anything. To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind. When the deep meaning of things is not understood, the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.
The Way is perfect, like vast space where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess. Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject that we do not see the true nature of things. Live neither in the entanglements of outer things, nor in inner feelings of emptiness. Be serene in the oneness of things, and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves. When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity, your very effort fills you with activity. As long as you remain in one extreme or the other, you will never know Oneness.
Those who do not live in the single Way fail in both activity and passivity, assertion and denial. To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality; to assert the emptiness of things is to miss their reality. The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from the truth. Stop talking and thinking, and there is nothing you will not be able to know.
To return to the root is to find the meaning, but to pursue appearances is to miss the source. At the moment of inner enlightenment, there is going beyond appearance and emptiness. The changes that appear to occur in the empty world we call real only because of our ignorance. Do not search for the truth; only cease to cherish opinions.
Do not remain in the dualistic state; avoid such pursuits carefully. If there is even a trace of this and that, of right and wrong, the Mind-essence will be lost in confusion. Although all dualities come from the One, do not be attached even to this One. When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way, nothing in the world can offend, and when a thing can no longer offend, it ceases to exist in the old way.
When no discriminating thoughts arise, the old mind ceases to exist. When thought-objects vanish, the thinking-subject vanishes, as when the mind vanishes, objects vanish. Things are objects because of the subject (mind); the mind (subject) is such because of things (objects). Understand the relativity of these two and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness. In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable and each contains, in itself, the whole world. If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine, you will not be tempted to prejudice and opinion.
To live in the great Way is neither easy nor difficult, but those with limited views are fearful and irresolute; the faster they hurry, the slower they go. And clinging (attachment) cannot be limited. Even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment is to go astray. Just let things be in their own way, and there will be neither coming nor going. Obey the nature of things (your own nature) and you will walk freely and undisturbed.
When thought is in bondage, the truth is hidden, for everything is murky and unclear, and the burdensome practice of judging brings annoyance and weariness. What benefit can be derived from distinctions and separation?
If you wish to move in the one Way, do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas. Indeed, to accept them fully is identical with true enlightenment. The wise man strives to no goals, but the foolish man fetters himself. There is one Dharma, not many; distinctions arise from the clinging needs of the ignorant. To seek Mind with the (discriminating) mind is the greatest of all mistakes.
Rest and unrest derive from illusion; with enlightenment there is no liking and disliking. All dualities come from ignorant inference. They are like dreams or flowers in air; foolish to try to grasp them. Gain and loss, right and wrong; such thoughts must finally be abolished at once.
If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease. If the mind makes no discriminations, the ten thousand things are as they are, of single essence. To understand the mystery of this One-essence is to be released from all entanglements. When all things are seen equally, the timeless Self-essence is reached. No comparisons or analogies are possible in this causeless, relationless state.
Consider movement stationary, and the stationary in motion; both movement and rest disappear. When such dualities cease to exist, Oneness itself cannot exist. To this ultimate finality no law or description applies.
For the unified mind in accord with the Way, all self-centered striving ceases. Doubts and irresolutions vanish, and life in true faith is possible. With a single stroke we are freed from bondage; nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing. All is empty, clear, self-illuminating, with no exertion of the mind's power. Here thought, feeling, knowledge and imagination are of no value. In this world of Suchness, there is neither self nor other-than-self.
To come directly into harmony with this reality, just simply say when doubts arise, "Not two". In this "not two", nothing is separate, nothing is excluded. No matter when or where, enlightenment means entering this truth. And this truth is beyond extension or diminution in time or space; in it, a single thought is ten thousand years.
Emptiness here, emptiness there, but the infinite universe stands always before your eyes. Infinitely large and infinitely small; no difference, for definitions have vanished and no boundaries are seen. So, too, with being and non-being. Don't waste time in doubts and arguments that have nothing to do with this. One thing, all things, move among and intermingle without distinction. To live in this realization is to be without anxiety about non-perfection. To live in this faith is the road to non-duality, because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind.
Words! The Way is beyond language, for in it, there is no yesterday, no tomorrow, no today.
* NOTE: The Chinese character translated as "Great Way" or "Way" is the character for "Tao." -- Weinstein
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Well, Adam (and Eve) sure took the fall for Satan, didn't they? And who executed their sentence?
Hint: Not Satan.
Viewed from my perspective, Satan can easily be viewed as the 'good' guy here - attempting to liberate Adam and Eve from being captive by a jealous, psychopathic God through acquisition of knowledge - ever the antidote to cultism of any stripe.
Sound familiar?
The story rages on today as cultists continue to vigorously combat the advance of human knowledge - at times violently. Intellectual isolation is the prerequisite for faith based belief systems, but times they are a changin thanks to technology. Siloing believers is getting a lot more difficult these days.
It should come as no surprise that the Christian Ideal For Man's Existence is that of pampered livestock - no challenges, and therefore no reason to challenge anything. The 'God's Perfect Garden' - about as far from any actual state of nature as one can get. Hmmmm.
F*#k that.
We humans were built to go out and do sh#t. And sometimes we die doing it.
F*#k yeah.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Viewed from my perspective, Satan can easily be viewed as the 'good' guy here...
Amen. Lucifer: (the light bearer; the bearer of light) the enlightener.
What's that say of Abrahamic religion? I know what it says to me, lol!
vigorously combat the advance of human knowledge
That's right.
But nothing "primitive" here. ;)
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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When I compare the list of beliefs side by side - modern Satanism versus Christianity - I'm solidly more on the Satanic side, WAY more, although that cult does seem a bit too libertarian and revenge oriented for my tastes, so I'll continue to give both a miss, thanks.
If Hell is individual for everyone - what would be your Hell?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The only understanding that Adam possessed before Eve gave him the fruit was that the tree was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that eating it's fruit is forbidden since it will result in death.God told him this:
Let me try it another way. if the above is the case then how did Adam sin? It's called original sin. How can one sin with out making a moral choice, that choice requiring a knowledge of good and evil what is moral and what is not.
The reason this myth is important to understand is that it demonstrates that the intricacies and complexities of morality and evil and goodness are much more complex than the dismissive "The Dude" approach of "yeah, well, like that's just your opinion man."
As well the Darwinian notion of social necessity, again ignores the greater more complex issues of what is good and bad.
The zealots of religion and the zealots of science tend to rely too much on untenable absolutes, certainties that reveal elusive ambiguity when they're carefully examined.
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